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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
January 23, 2020, 04:37:26 am
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Suzhou School Of Carvers

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Author Topic: Suzhou School Of Carvers  (Read 604 times)
Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2020, 05:33:14 am »

Dear Pat, I havent seen your post while posting my last one.
That's exact! For example, I ahve seen a bottle at auction claimed to be very rare. Shown to them the same bottle, not accepted, and no reason added for that.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2020, 05:57:46 am »

Dear Pat, I havent seen your post while posting my last one.
That's exact! For example, I ahve seen a bottle at auction claimed to be very rare. Shown to them the same bottle, not accepted, and no reason added for that.
Kind regards
Giovanni


I am sort of in a unique position in my field of collecting (mostly MPIP, or at least my number one priority), so in this area it is not complicated, nor does provenance make any difference, or hardly:

1. is it a genuine MPIP bottle?  Plenty of corroborating evidence to prove
2. is the signature and author authentic?  same answer as above
3. are there plenty of comparative samples?  mostly true

So then, why would auction houses reject items for auction?  I think we all know the answer. They don't want to flood the market and protect their lifeblood of supply(known collections and shady dealers)

I rest my case 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 06:13:53 am by Pat - 查尚杰 » Report Spam   Logged

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Pat
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2020, 09:56:01 am »

Giovanni and all,

I find this really interesting. Of course it makes complete sense for dealers to create mystique around specific bottles or "schools" to help flog their inventory, but I hadn't thought about the protectionist attitude of auction houses to limit "flooding" the market with similar bottles and devaluing (read:properly valuing) recently sold lots.

For my own education, I'm very curious about which Bloch auction bottles you feel are s**t? Please share if you are comfortable. I'm still developing an eye for all of this and sometimes feel like I'm standing in the middle of a minefield too cautious to take a step in any direction, which is why I've been collecting some Very Modern IPBs where provenance and painter are less an issue. I feel blessed that my grandfather had a good eye and found some top notch bottles, but I know that even he was conned a few times. One a Ma Shaoxuan bottle that Michael Chu unceremoniously dismissed as "fake" when I showed him a pic and another the very bottle he had commissioned of he and my grandmother that was supposed to be painted by Dong Xue (and likely paid for commensurately) that Wang Jinpeng verified was not authentic either. Enough to make you pull your hair out.

Why do snuff bottles attract such shady dealings?

Brian
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Brian – A third generation collector with champagne tastes and a beer budget.
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« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2020, 01:27:55 am »

Giovanni and all,



Why do snuff bottles attract such shady dealings?

Brian

Opportunity and people too rich for their own good, lazy to do proper research or apply common sense, gullible, or a combination of all ...
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Pat
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« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2020, 06:38:23 am »

Dear Brian,
Sorry I am not going to share that particular bottle of the Bloch collection that is absolutely laughable, because that story irritates me very much, and I am not willing to let it pass so unpunished.
It is my intention to build up a proper documentation and then make public on the Net to anyone who is who, or to be clear call incompetents as incompetents and call ignorant as ignorant. With the appropriate documentation.
It is a scandal that some personages are universally considered as being entitled to be respected while indeed they are missing the more basic common capacity of analysis. And on top of that making money.
As for your question, why all this happens, Pat has perfectly answered. What happened to your grandfather and you did report here, is a further example. It si more than evident to anybody with a grain of salt, that these personages are unscrupulous buffoons, but yet they still have credit.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2020, 09:15:16 am »


Opportunity and people too rich for their own good, lazy to do proper research or apply common sense, gullible, or a combination of all ...


Sounds about right...
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Brian – A third generation collector with champagne tastes and a beer budget.
snuffmke
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« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2020, 09:16:06 am »

Dear Brian,
Sorry I am not going to share that particular bottle of the Bloch collection that is absolutely laughable, because that story irritates me very much, and I am not willing to let it pass so unpunished.
It is my intention to build up a proper documentation and then make public on the Net to anyone who is who, or to be clear call incompetents as incompetents and call ignorant as ignorant. With the appropriate documentation.
It is a scandal that some personages are universally considered as being entitled to be respected while indeed they are missing the more basic common capacity of analysis. And on top of that making money.
As for your question, why all this happens, Pat has perfectly answered. What happened to your grandfather and you did report here, is a further example. It si more than evident to anybody with a grain of salt, that these personages are unscrupulous buffoons, but yet they still have credit.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Giovanni,

I, and I'm sure many on here, look forward to you exposé!

Brian
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Brian – A third generation collector with champagne tastes and a beer budget.
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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2020, 01:24:40 am »

 

Dear Giovanni,

    I've explained this to you a number of times.
1. 'Hugo Boss' sold the 'fake' to Bloch, and then 'curated' the sale.
Do you honestly believe he would describe a bottle he sold at a high price, as a fake?
Incidentally, I believe the bottle is genuine 18th C. But the calligraphy incised, is modern.

Having seen both yours and the Bloch bottle, I can categorically attest that yours is genuinely Qianlong, and Palace Workshops,x both bottle and incised inscription.

Sadly, you are 100% right, and 100% wrong.
The latter because you insist on ignoring the power of the Market.
Best,
Joey

Dear Pat, I havent seen your post while posting my last one.
That's exact! For example, I ahve seen a bottle at auction claimed to be very rare. Shown to them the same bottle, not accepted, and no reason added for that.
Kind regards
Giovanni

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2020, 02:10:48 am »

Dear Pat,

    According  to Peter Bentley, there are many fake modern IPSBs, signed by master artists,
but painted by their students.
So authenticity can be a problem.
And since  the artist is claiming bottles painted by students as his own,
Provenance can be a problem.
It is a money issue.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2020, 02:33:06 pm »

Dear Joey,
thank you. I think that you are understanding that I was not including you in the bunch of wealthy collectors with low knowledge. The fact that you believe that my bottle is genuine, going against the opinion of “big calipers” (sic) is clearly saying that you are on another planet compared to them.
I am writing you privately because we are on a public Forum here and some issues are sensitive.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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