5 painted bottles - updated - new bottle added for your opinion

[Solid_Snake]

Hello,

while monitoring french live auctions some time ago I came across these painted "crystal" bottles, they cost around 50/60 euros with fees so I bought to see. What do you think ? the makers mark is illegible and the other has no calligraphy, it looks like one of the birds is wearing a hat (lol). 

thanks
Thomas

[richy88]

Hi Thomas

The first bottle is signed Zhou Leyuan and dated spring, 1889.

However, the style and quality of the calligraphy is not from him.

For your information.

Regards.


Richard

[bambooforrest]

Thomas, I agree with Richard it is not by the hand of the master. The second bottle is modern....John

[Joey]

Dear Thomas,

   First off, what do you mean by 'crystal'?
Rock Crystal, or Quartz?
Lead Crystal?
The first bottle definitely looks to me like Quartz.
The second one, I'm not so sure.

Now, the first is signed and dated as Richard described.
But I believe it is 1980s/1990s, when an artist or artists in the PRC
were trying to fake Masters' works, but often made no effort to
really copy their styles or signatures.
We find Zhou Leyuan, Ding Erzhong, Ma Shaoxuan and Ye Zhongsan
among the masters copied.
I've never seen a Ma Shaoxian or a Bi Rongjiu or a Tang Zichuan faked...
Or a Yan Yutian, for that matter.

It could be Middle Period, and the trees and the structure in the distance
behind the badger/bear/ mutant giant rat (?!), with the non-eagle bird in the tree,
are a good attempt at copying Middle Period [ca.1870-1930] IPSB painting.

But the animal on the ground and the fact that they replaced the obligatory
eagle with another bird, makes me believe it is a modern copy.

Richard,  how does the calligraphy compare to that of contemporary artists,
as compared to that of Middle Period artists?
It looks to me to be modern, but your eye is much better than mine.

And the second looks to be a mixture of IPSB and enamelling.
And the top hat on the bird is quirky, to say the least.
Best,
Joey

[George]

I will guess your first bottle is painted by Yan Yutian. He like painting birds, and the calligraphy also looks like his.

The second bottle is a Shandong painted bottle. Steven once told about these and that they are from a group of artist who painted just prior to Zhou Leyuan. Tried to find his post referencing these, but no luck.

I have had a few similar ones and have been dating them 1850 to 1880 because of what I recall Steven telling.

https://snuffbottlejournal.blogspot.com/2014/03/amber-glass-inside-painted-chinese.html
https://snuffbottlejournal.blogspot.com/2012/03/nice-old-medicine-bottle-turned-snuff.html

[Joey]

George,
After I read what you wrote, I looked again, and the first one
is certainly in the palette and style of Yan Yutian. And I myself
had bottles by Yan Yutian with a Zhou Leyuan signature.
The second could be old, but what is with the bird sporting a
top hat.
Joey

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear  George  and  Joey,
you know that I am not  expert on  IP bottles, but I am very happy because when I saw  the first bottle,  just after  it has been posted, I thought that the hand was  that of Yan Yutian (the only artist that I recognize  ) especially becasue of the big animal, quite typical from him. But then I did check the signature and  it was not from him, so I have not commented.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[George]

Dear  George  and  Joey,
you know that I am not  expert on  IP bottles, but I am very happy because when I saw  the first bottle,  just after  it has been posted, I thought that the hand was  that of Yan Yutian (the only artist that I recognize  ) especially becasue of the big animal, quite typical from him. But then I did check the signature and  it was not from him, so I have not commented.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Great job recognizing it Giovanni!

[Joey]

Dear Giovanni,

    I agree with George.
Especially since I, who have over a dozen Yan Yutians, and have been studying
and collecting IPSBs for over 30 years, DIDN'T...

Dear George,
    About the second one, I'll defer to Steven's 'eye'.
I see that the bottle itself looks like an old one.
But I don't recognise the style of painting.

It could be the link between the Early Period IPSBs painted
in Guangdong by Gan Xuanwen etc. [they worked between 1797 and 1830 or so],
and the Middle Period IPSBs, from Zhou Leyuan and his contemporaries.

But I've no knowledge about them.
Best,
Joey

[Bruno]

Dear all ,
What a pleasure to share with you …. Since a long time .
I completely agree with George, it is for my part à bottle painted by Yan Yutian. I recognize his style very well having myself a few bottles of him , including one signed by Zhou Leyuan.

[Joey]

Dear all ,
What a pleasure to share with you …. Since a long time .
I completely agree with George, it is for my part à bottle painted by Yan Yutian. I recognize his style very well having myself a few bottles of him , including one signed by Zhou Leyuan.

Dear Bruno,

 NOT "signed by Zhou Leyuan", but 'one bearing the false signature of Zhou Leyuan'.
I also have a number of Yan Yutian bottles which he signed with a false signature of
Zhou Leyuan.
He did this in order to sell to buyers, most probably Western tourists, who would not
know the difference, but had been told that Zhou Leyuan's bottles were more expensive,
and thus get Yan Yutian a better price.
A number of artists did this at the time.
And a group did it in the 1980s...
Best,
Joey

[Bruno]

Dear Joey ,
yes of course , you are absolutely right : I expressed myself very badly and you were right to correct me .

[Joey]

Dear Bruno,

   I have a mild case of Aspergers, so feel obligated to correct mistakes.
Also, there are less than reputable people, who would take your innocent
error, and use it for their own gain.
Thank you for your understanding.
Best,
Joey

[Solid_Snake]

Hello dear friends,

Thank you all for your comments and help.

I learned things (I don't know anything about it originally) thank you again, it's very interesting.

after looking on the forum and on the internet we can not say that my copy is one of the best creation of Yutian lol
I would have preferred it to be a learning bottle rather than a quickly painted model for tourists.

@Joey
I wrote "crystal" but they may be glass...I looked with a magnifying glass without seeing any bubbles and the weight is a bit heavy so I thought of crystal. I believe we prefer to say "quartz"?

thanks to your messages I took two new bottles at auction, always at a low price so as not to be "cheated".

for the transparent news the auction house specified in its announcement that the signature was not from the master. another bottle made by a student?

the second in amber glass, your opinion on these inscriptions and bottles?

thank you

best
Thomas

[richy88]

Hi Thomas

The amber bottle is signed Xue Cheng Cai.

For your reference.

Regards.



Richard

[bambooforrest]

I am posting this amber glass bottle because I think it is similar to the ones Thomas and George posted [62mm].

[George]

@Joey
I wrote "crystal" but they may be glass...I looked with a magnifying glass without seeing any bubbles and the weight is a bit heavy so I thought of crystal. I believe we prefer to say "quartz"?

I am pretty sure this bottle is quartz. I can see what look like natural inclusions.

[Joey]

George,
 
  If you mean the second of the two bottles in:
 on: November 13, 2022, 04:11:12 am »

I think you are correct. The one with the weird, hat-wearing bird,
does look like a quartz bottle of the type seen during the Early Period
{Gan Xuanwen etc.].
Best,
Joey

@Joey
I wrote "crystal" but they may be glass...I looked with a magnifying glass without seeing any bubbles and the weight is a bit heavy so I thought of crystal. I believe we prefer to say "quartz"?

I am pretty sure this bottle is quartz. I can see what look like natural inclusions.

[George]

George,
 
  If you mean the second of the two bottles in:
 on: November 13, 2022, 04:11:12 am »

Yes, that one.

[Joey]

I agree with you, George.

But that just dates the vessel.
The question is, when was it painted?
But if Steven attributed this style to ca. 1830-1870,
I would certainly trust his judgement.
Best,
Joey