Click On Globe To View Forum Visitors From Around The World

About This Forum

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
November 26, 2022, 04:03:07 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Contact Login Register  

4 painted bottles - update

Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: 4 painted bottles - update  (Read 112 times)
Solid_Snake
Newbie
*
Posts: 27


« on: November 13, 2022, 04:11:12 am »

Hello,

while monitoring french live auctions some time ago I came across these painted "crystal" bottles, they cost around 50/60 euros with fees so I bought to see. What do you think ? the makers mark is illegible and the other has no calligraphy, it looks like one of the birds is wearing a hat (lol).  Grin

thanks
Thomas


* IMG_20221014_160822.jpg (231.2 KB, 650x867 - viewed 29 times.)

* IMG_20221014_160920.jpg (217.67 KB, 650x867 - viewed 29 times.)

* IMG_20221014_160938.jpg (189.92 KB, 650x867 - viewed 24 times.)

* IMG_20221014_161013.jpg (174.25 KB, 650x867 - viewed 18 times.)

* IMG_20221014_160943.jpg (132.26 KB, 650x867 - viewed 17 times.)

* IMG_20221014_161026.jpg (245.45 KB, 650x867 - viewed 28 times.)

* IMG_20221014_161032.jpg (202.92 KB, 650x867 - viewed 30 times.)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 11:29:15 am by Solid_Snake » Report Spam   Logged

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

richy88
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2710



« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2022, 07:03:04 am »

Hi Thomas

The first bottle is signed Zhou Leyuan and dated spring, 1889.

However, the style and quality of the calligraphy is not from him.

For your information.

Regards.


Richard
Report Spam   Logged

Richard from sunny Singapore
Evaluate Educate Entertain
bambooforrest
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Posts: 497


« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2022, 07:06:08 am »

Thomas, I agree with Richard it is not by the hand of the master. The second bottle is modern....John
Report Spam   Logged

John O'Hara

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 10429


« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2022, 11:50:45 am »

Dear Thomas,

   First off, what do you mean by 'crystal'?
Rock Crystal, or Quartz?
Lead Crystal?
The first bottle definitely looks to me like Quartz.
The second one, I'm not so sure.

Now, the first is signed and dated as Richard described.
But I believe it is 1980s/1990s, when an artist or artists in the PRC
were trying to fake Masters' works, but often made no effort to
really copy their styles or signatures.
We find Zhou Leyuan, Ding Erzhong, Ma Shaoxuan and Ye Zhongsan
among the masters copied.
I've never seen a Ma Shaoxian or a Bi Rongjiu or a Tang Zichuan faked...
Or a Yan Yutian, for that matter.

It could be Middle Period, and the trees and the structure in the distance
behind the badger/bear/ mutant giant rat (?!), with the non-eagle bird in the tree,
are a good attempt at copying Middle Period [ca.1870-1930] IPSB painting.

But the animal on the ground and the fact that they replaced the obligatory
eagle with another bird, makes me believe it is a modern copy.

Richard,  how does the calligraphy compare to that of contemporary artists,
as compared to that of Middle Period artists?
It looks to me to be modern, but your eye is much better than mine.

And the second looks to be a mixture of IPSB and enamelling.
And the top hat on the bird is quirky, to say the least.
Best,
Joey

« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 08:55:02 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11227



WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2022, 03:10:43 pm »

I will guess your first bottle is painted by Yan Yutian. He like painting birds, and the calligraphy also looks like his.

The second bottle is a Shandong painted bottle. Steven once told about these and that they are from a group of artist who painted just prior to Zhou Leyuan. Tried to find his post referencing these, but no luck.

I have had a few similar ones and have been dating them 1850 to 1880 because of what I recall Steven telling.

https://snuffbottlejournal.blogspot.com/2014/03/amber-glass-inside-painted-chinese.html
https://snuffbottlejournal.blogspot.com/2012/03/nice-old-medicine-bottle-turned-snuff.html
Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

Snuff Bottle Journal
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 10429


« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2022, 03:31:39 pm »

George,
After I read what you wrote, I looked again, and the first one
is certainly in the palette and style of Yan Yutian. And I myself
had bottles by Yan Yutian with a Zhou Leyuan signature.
The second could be old, but what is with the bird sporting a
top hat.
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 3828



« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2022, 11:09:11 am »

Dear  George  and  Joey,
you know that I am not  expert on  IP bottles, but I am very happy because when I saw  the first bottle,  just after  it has been posted, I thought that the hand was  that of Yan Yutian (the only artist that I recognize  Grin) especially becasue of the big animal, quite typical from him. But then I did check the signature and  it was not from him, so I have not commented.
Kind regards
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11227



WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2022, 01:24:42 am »

Dear  George  and  Joey,
you know that I am not  expert on  IP bottles, but I am very happy because when I saw  the first bottle,  just after  it has been posted, I thought that the hand was  that of Yan Yutian (the only artist that I recognize  Grin) especially becasue of the big animal, quite typical from him. But then I did check the signature and  it was not from him, so I have not commented.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Great job recognizing it Giovanni!
Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

Snuff Bottle Journal
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 10429


« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2022, 09:01:24 am »

Dear Giovanni,

    I agree with George.
Especially since I, who have over a dozen Yan Yutians, and have been studying
and collecting IPSBs for over 30 years, DIDN'T... Roll Eyes Shocked Embarrassed

Dear George,
    About the second one, I'll defer to Steven's 'eye'.
I see that the bottle itself looks like an old one.
But I don't recognise the style of painting.

It could be the link between the Early Period IPSBs painted
in Guangdong by Gan Xuanwen etc. [they worked between 1797 and 1830 or so],
and the Middle Period IPSBs, from Zhou Leyuan and his contemporaries.

But I've no knowledge about them.
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Bruno
Newbie
*
Gender: Male
Posts: 18



« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2022, 11:25:36 am »

Dear all ,
What a pleasure to share with you . Since a long time .
I completely agree with George, it is for my part bottle painted by Yan Yutian. I recognize his style very well having myself a few bottles of him , including one signed by Zhou Leyuan.
Report Spam   Logged
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 10429


« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2022, 05:50:16 am »

Dear all ,
What a pleasure to share with you . Since a long time .
I completely agree with George, it is for my part bottle painted by Yan Yutian. I recognize his style very well having myself a few bottles of him , including one signed by Zhou Leyuan.


Dear Bruno,

 NOT "signed by Zhou Leyuan", but 'one bearing the false signature of Zhou Leyuan'. Wink
I also have a number of Yan Yutian bottles which he signed with a false signature of
Zhou Leyuan.
He did this in order to sell to buyers, most probably Western tourists, who would not
know the difference, but had been told that Zhou Leyuan's bottles were more expensive,
and thus get Yan Yutian a better price.
A number of artists did this at the time.
And a group did it in the 1980s...
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Bruno
Newbie
*
Gender: Male
Posts: 18



« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2022, 01:30:56 pm »

Dear Joey ,
yes of course , you are absolutely right : I expressed myself very badly and you were right to correct me .
Report Spam   Logged
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 10429


« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2022, 02:06:11 pm »

Dear Bruno,

   I have a mild case of Aspergers, so feel obligated to correct mistakes.
Also, there are less than reputable people, who would take your innocent
error, and use it for their own gain.
Thank you for your understanding.
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Solid_Snake
Newbie
*
Posts: 27


« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2022, 11:28:26 am »

Hello dear friends,

Thank you all for your comments and help.

I learned things (I don't know anything about it originally) thank you again, it's very interesting.

after looking on the forum and on the internet we can not say that my copy is one of the best creation of Yutian lol
I would have preferred it to be a learning bottle rather than a quickly painted model for tourists.

@Joey
I wrote "crystal" but they may be glass...I looked with a magnifying glass without seeing any bubbles and the weight is a bit heavy so I thought of crystal. I believe we prefer to say "quartz"?

thanks to your messages I took two new bottles at auction, always at a low price so as not to be "cheated".

for the transparent news the auction house specified in its announcement that the signature was not from the master. another bottle made by a student?

the second in amber glass, your opinion on these inscriptions and bottles?

thank you

best
Thomas


* Screenshot_20221124_144005.jpg (167.04 KB, 700x1013 - viewed 10 times.)

* Screenshot_20221124_144042.jpg (106.65 KB, 700x1068 - viewed 10 times.)

* Screenshot_20221124_144106.jpg (109.55 KB, 700x883 - viewed 9 times.)
Report Spam   Logged
richy88
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2710



« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2022, 08:11:28 pm »

Hi Thomas

The amber bottle is signed Xue Cheng Cai.

For your reference.

Regards.



Richard
Report Spam   Logged

Richard from sunny Singapore
Evaluate Educate Entertain
bambooforrest
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Posts: 497


« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2022, 12:10:35 pm »

I am posting this amber glass bottle because I think it is similar to the ones Thomas and George posted [62mm].


* BOX INSIDE1 (2).JPG (151.96 KB, 456x700 - viewed 8 times.)

* BOX INSIDE2 (2).JPG (92.84 KB, 262x700 - viewed 0 times.)

* BOX INSIDE3 (2).JPG (153.24 KB, 459x700 - viewed 5 times.)

* BOX INSIDE4 (2).JPG (129.35 KB, 676x400 - viewed 0 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

John O'Hara

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11227



WWW
« Reply #16 on: Today at 03:39:59 pm »



@Joey
I wrote "crystal" but they may be glass...I looked with a magnifying glass without seeing any bubbles and the weight is a bit heavy so I thought of crystal. I believe we prefer to say "quartz"?


I am pretty sure this bottle is quartz. I can see what look like natural inclusions.
Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

Snuff Bottle Journal
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal