5 painted bottles - updated - new bottle added for your opinion

[Solid_Snake]

Hello guys,

@Richard,
Thank you a lot for your identification.

@John,
Thank you for sharing your bottle, I love it.

Best regards
Thomas

[Solid_Snake]

Hello
Can you tell me the artist and traduction of the calligraphy?
Thank you

[Joey]

It is falsely signed ’Zhou Leyuan’,
But I can’t tell from the other side if it
is a bottle by Yan Yutian and Middle Period
(ca. 1870-1948) in late Qing or early Republican China ,
or one of a large number of Fakes made ca. 1970-1990,
in the Peoples’ Republic of China (PRC).

My first reaction was ‘modern fake’,
based on the obviously fake signature of Zhou Leyuan,
And the painting that is obviously NOT that Master’s work.
Then, seeing the obvious palette of Yan Yutian on the reverse,
I thought, “Possibly Yan Yutian and ca. 1890s to 1910s”.
But the PRC artists faking older bottles could copy Yan Yutian’s
palette, just as they could copy Zhou Leyuan’s signature.

I think it is fake.
What do others think?
Best,
Happy Hanuka,
Joey

[Solid_Snake]

Hello Joey,
Thank you for you quick response.
Sold at auction as "strange and not usual calligraphy of Zhou Luyan but Qing dynasty period".
I've paid low price but I hope it's not a modern repro 😔

Happy Hanuka to you.
Best
Thomas

[Joey]

Dear Thomas,

  I keep going back and forth between Yan Yutian and ca. 1890-1930,
And ca.1980-1990.
Let’s see what George, Charll, Richard and Giovanni say.
Best,
Joey

[rpfstoneman]

Thomas,

This is not one of my strong collecting areas, so I'll have to defer to others with more knowledge than myself.  That said, my quick look is that it appears to be a period copy produced in the 1st half of the 20th century.

Charll   

[Joey]

Thomas,

This is not one of my strong collecting areas, so I'll have to defer to others with more knowledge than myself.  That said, my quick look is that it appears to be a period copy produced in the 1st half of the 20th century.

Charll   

Dear Charll,

  Your comment confused me.
We know snuff bottles with fake Zhou Leyuan signatures were produced
in 2 periods:
1. Ca. 1890 - 1930, by artists from Ye Zhongsan the Elder down to a whole bunch of lesser artists. If it is from this period, most probably Yan Yutian is the artist. His palette, as seen on the side without calligraphy, is quite distinct.
2. Ca. 1970 - 1990, by artists to help the PRC get foreign currency, and then, after 1985, to help themselves economically. We know that Suo Zhenhai made a bunch of fake Zhou Leyuan-signed bottles.
A number were displayed in the collection exhibited at the Chinese University of Hong Kong Art Gallery during the 2014 ICSBS Hong Kong
Convention, with that wonderful catalogue of the collector’s Suo Zhenhai
snuff bottles.

So are you saying the bottle is from category 1 or category 2?
Best,
Joey

[richy88]

Hi all

I think this is not a genuine Zhou Leyland bottle.

Regards.


Richard

[rpfstoneman]

Joey,

Category 1.  It looks to be a middle period bottle and as discussed a copy of one of the better known artists.  I thought Yan Yutian as as well, which was the first artist that came to mind, but it just seems off for his work as well.

Charll

[Joey]

Dear Charll,

   You are right!
It is indeed Middle Period, ca. 1895 - 1945,
But is either Yan Yutian on a very bad day,
or some other artist doing a poor imitation of
his work and of Zhou Leyuan’s signature.
That is why I was waffling between Yan Yutian
and a bottle from the 1980s.
Thank you,
Joey

[George]

Joey,

Category 1.  It looks to be a middle period bottle and as discussed a copy of one of the better known artists.  I thought Yan Yutian as as well, which was the first artist that came to mind, but it just seems off for his work as well.

Charll

I agree Charll 

[Joey]

My problem with it NOT being Yan Yutian,
Is thst no other artists copied his palette,
To my knowledge.
Falsely signing Zhou Leyuan’s signature, at least a dozen artists.
But copying Yan Yutian’s palette and style?
None come to mind.
But since  the artists were commercial,
and had  3 levels for painting in quartz;
And 3 levels for painting in glass.
Possibly this was Yan Yutian’s cheapest quality in glass.
Best,
Joey

[Tom B.]

Dear Thomas and All,

Thank you for listing these very different Inside Painted Snuff Bottles.  The most interesting to me was the late Early School bottle with the two doves (bird in a top hat) and a Pekinese dog on the reverse. I noticed that nobody questioned the decoration so I decided to do some research before commenting.  What I found were some very interesting facts as to why that type of decoration became so popular.

I didn't find any examples of Inside Painted Bottles being sold or published in my research, but I found several examples of Imperial Daoguang Mark & Period porcelain snuff bottles from various important collections.  The following is a link to one sold by Christie's Auction New York in September 2007 as part of the Meriem Collection
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-4952413

[Tom B.]

There was a lot essay following the description, that is well worth the read. It is as follows:

"The present example belongs to a group of finely painted bottles from the Daoguang period which were made in sets for the Court to distribute as gifts. It is decorated with pairs of doves on both sides, although it was not uncommon for some bottles to be painted with doves on one side, and Pekinese dogs on the other.

It would appear that the Daoguang Emperor and his consort were fond of doves and small dogs, respectively, so the two subjects were popular on Imperial snuff bottles of the period. According to Geoffrey R. Sayer (Tao Ya or Pottery Refinements, London, 1959, p. 123, no. 722), "Cheng Miao [the Daoguang Emperor] was fond of pigeons; his exalted concubine was fond of little dogs. That is why many of the dishes of the period have pictures of these two creatures."

Paired doves, like other paired creatures, suggest conjugal bliss. As a rule, one of the creatures is light and one dark, presumably to mirror the yin/yang balance. This is certainly one of the more effective and successful decorative designs of the Imperial kilns, with the simplicity of the shapes of the doves set against the grassy ground.

A Daoguang-marked enameled porcelain bottle with very similar design, from the J & J Collection, was sold in these rooms, 29 March 2006, lot 15. Another example decorated with a pair of doves on one side and a pair of Pekinese dogs on the reverse is in the Palace Museum, Beijing, and is illustrated in Snuff Bottles. The Complete Collection of Treasures of the Palace Museum, p. 227, no. 348."

Since there were so many of these Imperial bottles circulating among the elite, it would be logical that contemporary copies would be made.  It is impossible to tell when they began to copy these porcelain snuff bottles, but we can assume that they would be no earlier the early 1820's and lose interest shortly after the end of Daoguang's reign.

Best regards and Seasons Greetings to all,

Tom B.

[Joey]

Dear Tom B.,

   Thank you for the info.
Do you have any idea why one dove has a top hat?
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanuka,
Joey

[Tom B.]

Dear Joey,

Thank you for the Christmas wishes and Happy Hanuka to you too. 

Possible explanations:
1. the author was working a rush job with poor lighting - moonlighting from his day job?
2. He was making it for a British soldier around the time of the Opium Wars
3. Or it is anyone's guess.

We will never know for sure, so I just view the spirit of the decoration as an homage to the decoration favored by the Emperor.

All the best in the coming year,

Tom B.

[Joey]

Dear Tom B.,

   
   2. is possible
and 3. is Reasonable,
but your assumption as to the homage to the Emperor is also possible,
but improbable, since the Han Chinese in the south were not great fans of the
Manchu Qing Emperors in Beijing.

It could have been a veiled slight of the Emperor, 'His' Dove with a European top hat,
to show his weakness vis a vis the Europeans.
Especially after the defeats the Qing Court suffered during the Opium Wars.

Or even  a nod to the Taiping Pretender, who was known to have an affectation for European
clothing and other aspects of European culture, and who had adopted a bastardised version
of Christianity [including portraying himself as Jesus' younger brother!].

These flights of fancy are fun, and pace #3. It is indeed anyone's guess....

Best to you and All
for the Civil New Year next Sunday.
Joey

[Solid_Snake]

Hello guys,

Thank you all for your participation Joey, Charll, George, Richard, Tom B, I enjoy reading and learning from this forum.

for the hat of the bird, I first thought the hat was just a painter's mistake in his painting but suggestions of Tom B and Joey are interesting and fun.

I found by chance a bottle similar to the last one I posted, courtesy of the royal museum of mariemont in Belgium, the link here

http://collections.artemis.cfwb.be/?queries=query=selectfacet=Collection=Mus%C3%A9e%20royal%20de%20Mariemont&query=Having%20an%20image,Creator,Sorting%20fields,Collection,Title,Inventory%20number,Objecttype,Location%20type,Room,PSO%20level,Location%20type&showtype=list&metatagid=undefined&metaTagTitle=CollectionConnection&metaTagDescription=Results%20of%20search%20query#/query/65b9abbf-c97f-4fce-a23a-3b8cc1cb2a2d

And a better photo of mine

[Joey]

Uh, All I found on that site [Royal Museum in Belgium],
is a bunch of weapons and other stuff the Belgians stole from
the former Belgian Congo.

At least they didn't post the pigmies and other African people
they'd murdered and stuffed [taxidermy] around 1906.
I saw that in the museum in Brussels while visiting with a friend from Toronto
in July 1975 [his relative, a Holocaust survivor, worked there, and got us into the
storerooms; I wish she hadn't...] and it took a long time to get it out of my thoughts.

Best,
Joey

[Tom B.]

Dear Joey,

I was able to find it after some hunting:

http://collections.artemis.cfwb.be/?queries=query=selectfacet=Collection=Mus%C3%A9e%20royal%20de%20Mariemont&query=Having%20an%20image,Creator,Sorting%20fields,Collection,Title,Inventory%20number,Objecttype,Location%20type,Room,PSO%20level,Location%20type&showtype=list&metatagid=undefined&metaTagTitle=CollectionConnection&metaTagDescription=Results%20of%20search%20query#/query/a00ed0f1-87af-4ed6-8698-e74a373c874f

The description states that the other side (not pictured) has two doves on a rock with a Pekinese below similar to the decoration on Thomas' bottle, but no mention of the inscription.

Best regards,

Tom B.