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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
February 05, 2023, 03:43:43 pm
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Rapid Promotion to the rank of Marquis

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Author Topic: Rapid Promotion to the rank of Marquis  (Read 177 times)
Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2022, 11:10:31 am »

Dear Tom, the hidden meaning is well explained in the description of my bottle:
https://www.xipangu.co.uk/mangialupo/?product=eight-lobed-bowl-with-chenghua-mark-1770-1790
Dear Richard, I have a b&w porcelain snuff bottle with the wasp and the monkey, but with a deer instead of the horse:
https://www.xipangu.co.uk/mangialupo/?product=nabeshima-sake-cup-marked-rozan-1950-1980
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Wattana
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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2022, 11:02:02 pm »

Thank you Giovanni.

After reading your link to the hidden meaning of the 18 deer, a monkey and a spider ( 十八, 鹿, 猴子, 蜘蛛 ) I am still not clear as to the interpretation.
It is indeed rare, as it does not appear in any of my reference books on Chinese symbolism.

Best regards,
Tom
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Joey
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« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2022, 11:31:32 pm »

I'm amazed anew at the depth of symbolism in the decoration of each snuff bottle.
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2022, 02:08:13 am »

Dear Tom,
As said in the description of the bottle, I have only seen this motif six times in total.
It took years before to decipher the meaning. What I reported has been said by a member of Gotheborg, a Chinese lady who proved many times to be very knowledgeable about Chinese culture.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2022, 02:08:52 am »

By looking at the translation of the characters, I probably found the connection. The spider is 蜘蛛, (pron. Zhīzhū). While in the title of the story we have 诸侯 (pron. Zhūhķu), meaning Lords or Princes. We should hear Richard here 😊.
Giovanni
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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2022, 02:43:43 am »

Hi Giovanni

Thanks for sharing your bottles and the information.

Yes, I agreed that the hidden meaning for the eighteen deer and spider should be correct.

In the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, 18 warlords from all over the country gathered to try to overthrow the prime minister, Dong Zhuo who has the Emperor under his control. Although they were not successful, Dong Zhuo was finally killed by Lu Bu. From then on, the country was divided into many military warlords who fought against each other to seize control of the country's territory and power.

Regards.


Richard






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Richard from sunny Singapore
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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2022, 03:56:17 am »

Dear Richard, I am VERY happy that you confirmed the hidden meaning of this decoration. Thank you very much!
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2022, 01:51:28 pm »

All, I have 2 bottles with just the 18 deer. Does this refer back to the Romance of the Three Kingdoms story? Unusual carved unglazed porcelain bottle [55mm].


* CARVED DEER1 (2).JPG (221.26 KB, 642x800 - viewed 12 times.)

* CARVED DEER2 (2).JPG (157.6 KB, 469x800 - viewed 6 times.)

* CARVED DEER3 (2).JPG (219.72 KB, 629x800 - viewed 9 times.)

* CARVED DEER4 (2).JPG (155.57 KB, 469x800 - viewed 8 times.)

* CARVED DEER5 (2).JPG (129.87 KB, 689x500 - viewed 9 times.)
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John O'Hara

Joey
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« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2022, 04:35:02 pm »

Dear John,

     This bottle is a real tour-de-force!
Impressive.
Thank  you for posting it.
As to your query, I can't answer that, but I'm sure that Richard can.
Or possibly Giovanni, with his connection to Gotheborg.
Best,
joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

richy88
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« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2022, 10:37:47 pm »

Hi John

Thanks for posting this unusual bottle.

As the other two elements, the monkey and spider were missing, I do not think this motif refers to the Romance of the Three Kingdoms theme.

However, this is probably the theme for the hundred deer, a common design among porcelain pieces, especially vases.

As the size of the snuff bottle is too small to depict all hundred deer at once, many deer probably suggest the same theme.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

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Richard from sunny Singapore
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« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2022, 01:31:00 am »

Dear John,
according to this Wikipedia link, 18 is an auspicious number in China, and even more in Judaism, as Joey for sure knows:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18_(number)
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2022, 08:18:12 am »

Everyone, thanks for the info. I have heard of the "100 deer" motif. In my study of Chinese martial arts we have 3 advanced forms: the 18 point, 36 point and the 108 point form. The next bottle is underglaze B&W& copper red [52mm].


* ig b&w&red deer1 (2).JPG (205.15 KB, 542x800 - viewed 8 times.)

* ig b&w&red deer2 (2).JPG (194.52 KB, 539x800 - viewed 5 times.)

* ig b&w&red deer3 (2).JPG (210.4 KB, 550x800 - viewed 5 times.)

* ig b&w&red deer4 (2).JPG (191.83 KB, 538x800 - viewed 5 times.)

* ig b&w&red deer5 (2).JPG (125.04 KB, 553x500 - viewed 4 times.)
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John O'Hara

Joey
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« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2022, 05:45:01 pm »

Everyone, thanks for the info. I have heard of the "100 deer" motif. In my study of Chinese martial arts we have 3 advanced forms: the 18 point, 36 point and the 108 point form. The next bottle is underglaze B&W& copper red [52mm].

John,
    18, 36 and 108 are all multiples of 18 [1x, 2x, 6x, respectively].
All are auspicious numbers in Judaism, and I'm assuming, in Chinese culture as well.

I have a wonderful, though quite large bottle, # 75 in my catalogue "In Search of a Dragon" [pp.106-107].
It is 108mm tall, and painted by Suyundaoren, "made by Suyun Retired Follower of the Dao".
It has 99 deer covering the bottle in a continuous scene, with the 100th on the base along
with the inscription. 
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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