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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
November 26, 2022, 03:49:50 pm
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My recent study on a enamel painted snuff bottle

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Author Topic: My recent study on a enamel painted snuff bottle  (Read 158 times)
David Chen
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« on: September 17, 2022, 11:54:58 am »

『An Enamel Painted Snuff Bottle, Qing Dynasty, Qianlong Period』

A while ago, when I was sorting out the family collection at home during the Chinese Moon Festival, I accidentally found this piece, which I had never noticed. It draws my massive attention due to its beauty. So, I dived into it and discussed it with some fellows.

However, everyone has different opinions on this work. Whether it is a copy by Wang Xisan and Liu Heping after the 1960s or a work of art crafted by royal craftsmen during the Qianlong period, everyone has different views. Opinion. Everyone holds the same ground that it is old material. The question is how old.

The painting style has an old-fashioned and antique flavor with the ochre yellow in the background. This piece depicts the continuous peach branches, the peach blossoms, and the plump peach fruit. The composition and layout are vivid, the used colors are elegant, and the glaze color is pink and tender. As seen, the granular floating on the bottle's surface is one of the characteristics of the material body enamel color.

From the perspective of painting style, I compared it with the works of Master Wang Xisan and Mr. Liu Heping, but I did not see any correlation. There were not many painters during the era, so the clues were lost in this part so far.

However, one of my fellows in China put forward two credible thoughts:

1.   The painter applied a special liquid, so-called "Dresden Oil 多爾門油" used by the imperial craftsmen in Qianlong during the making process. This method had been lost since the late Qing dynasty. Enamel products that used Dresden oil looked warmer compared to contemporary works. From the touch feeling, it was more like touching a sense of sand. As I knew from an enameled glass snuff bottle artisan in China that he said modern imitations (After the 1960s ) mixed with modern glue make the enamel looks more shiny and smooth. Moreover, modern painters use a large amount of modern glue while mixing the mineral material. It will make the painting looks more like three dimensions instead of naturally standing out. Also, the details on the modern snuff bottle have fewer mini particles than the enamel made in Qing Dynasty.

2.   From the inscription at the bottom, the inscription is very regular and standard. It is difficult for a modern painter to write such a strong inscription. Also, if you look closer, this inscription method is in the form of accumulation, meaning the blue material is drawn and fired repeatedly after every stroke. It is a typical feature of the Qianlong period.

The above is my recent study. Welcome any thoughts. Perhaps, this piece is around the 1970s due to the color still shining while the color of those antique snuff bottles has been faint.   











« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 11:58:57 am by David Chen » Report Spam   Logged

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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2022, 01:30:40 pm »

David,

Thank you for sharing this bottle and your thoughts as to date of origin.  My initial thought (gut sense) as based off the photos is that this a contemporary bottle.  I picked up a few new enamel on glass bottles between 2000 and 2010, and they have a look very similar to the posted bottle.  The rational for my initial opinion is as follows:

1) Beautifully done bottle and of known design, but the colors appear to be to vivid and to much surface shine. My sense is the colors of older works, and those of Wang Xisan, Ye Bengqi, and the like, though can be vivid, are more subdued and/or even have more of a pastel palette look. 

2) The mark appears to be a heap-and-pile method, though crisp, this to me is a more modern.  Marks, like handwriting, can be easily copied to present an appearance of old origin.

One image which may also help with an evaluation is the interior throat of the bottle.  No effort is usually given to smooth and polish the interior throat of a modern glass bottle because it is hidden by the stopper.  Often contemporary (post 1950 to 2000) and modern bottles (2000 to date) have drill striations on the interior throat.  For the artist or studio of a more newly produced bottle did not take care to that detail, vs. that of a more caring craftsman or court produced item. 

Please note that the thoughts and opinions provided are coming from a long time collector and not that of an expert in this area.

Attached is one of my post 2000 purchases in with a yellow color palette.    Charll
 


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« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 01:40:48 pm by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2022, 06:46:17 pm »

Dear David,

   Welcome back.
Sadly, I agree with Charll. I would date this to the modern period as well.
But superbly painted.
Best,
joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2022, 10:51:49 pm »

David's images are not showing up on my screen, so I can't comment on his bottle.
However, I agree with Charll's general assessment for this genre of bottle.
I have a few, bought knowing they were modern, because they were beautifully made and inexpensive.

Tom
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David Chen
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2022, 02:15:39 am »

Dear Charll.

Thank you!! Your opinion is very useful to me ! I will mark it.

I have added several pictures of the inner throat of the bottles. What do you think?

The bottle inside is still remaining the usage of snuff, which I didn't clean up in order to keep it original.











« Last Edit: September 18, 2022, 01:35:56 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

D.D Art is founded by Xu Liwei and Po Han Chen (David). This site shares the weekly journals about Inside painting and Enameled glass snuff bottle. Welcome to explore in D.D Art...

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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2022, 02:23:59 am »

Dear David,

   Welcome back.
Sadly, I agree with Charll. I would date this to the modern period as well.
But superbly painted.
Best,
joey

Dear Joey,

I know I disappeared for a little while cuz I was busy with my family business in the first half of the year. Now I have more time to study and sort my family collection.

I also think it was made in the modern period, around 1960 to the 1980s. And it must be made by the master due to the quality and painting style.

But I don't know who the painter is. I confirmed Xu Liwei, and he replies that it wasn't by Wang Xisan. It is more likely by Liu Heping but probably not entirely.

I am still investigating it.

Regards,

David

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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2022, 02:29:05 am »

David's images are not showing up on my screen, so I can't comment on his bottle.
However, I agree with Charll's general assessment for this genre of bottle.
I have a few, bought knowing they were modern, because they were beautifully made and inexpensive.

Tom

Dear Tom,

Do you have any suggestion that I could upload my pictures?

Regards,

David
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2022, 03:03:59 am »

Hi David

Thanks for sharing the info.

You can attach your photos under the Additional Options... Attach, in the Reply dialog box.

Just ensure that your photo sizes are not too big.

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2022, 05:41:30 am »

How is it possible that some of us are seeing the pictures and others, including myself, not? Where are the pictures, here on the Forum plattform or elsewhere?
Giovanni
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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2022, 05:43:46 am »

Oh, now I see the pictures. Sorry, surely modernn, I fully agree with Charll. The enamels and the painting style are clearly modern to me.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2022, 09:26:32 am »

I saw the pictures only once, then disappeared again
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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2022, 09:49:22 am »

Dear David,

     Not a criticism, just acknowledging you'd been here before.
I'd hardly criticise the person who supplied me with such wonderful boxes for my snuff bottles!
I love the boxes. Again, thank you.

   And I assumed you were looking after family - we have all been doing that for the last 3 years,
thanks to the 'CCP/ Obama/ Fauci' Virus Pandemic [The CCP spread it, after Obama and Fauci
transferred the research from very safe US laboratories to the very unsafe PRC Laboratory in Wuhan].

   It is very hard to identify the artist who made an enamelled glass snuff bottle.
I bought one in 1982 at the ICSBS convention at the Waldorf Astoria NYC that year.
It was US$200 and I was told that it was by Ye Bengqi. Then I was told it wasn't, a few years later,
but that it was by Wang Xisan. Then I was told that it wasn't by Master Wang either.
But I still love the bottle, #76 in my 1987 Israel Museum catalogue.
Best,
Joey
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 04:01:52 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2022, 12:56:01 pm »


David,

The picture(s) of the bottle throat you added are not coming up for me at this time.  If anyone else is seeing them let me know.  Charll
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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2022, 09:58:40 pm »

Hi Charll & all

I did not see any picture on the post as well.

I saw them on David's Facebook post.

For your information.

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2022, 10:49:14 am »

Dear All,

I have reattached the picture. Thanks for the advise from the Richard.

I hope it works well now



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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2022, 12:32:55 pm »

David, got the pic's. 

Yes, the throat of the bottle appears to indicate a late 20th century, or later, production.  Within the throat of bottles on later pieces I've noticed horizontal grinding marks around the interior throat indicating the likely use of an abrasive bit.  Older bottles appear to have a more smooth interior surface as a result of up-n-down filing.  Imperial and even older quality bottles have a taken this a step further, in that the interior throat is polished smooth to a sheen. 

Charll

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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2022, 12:58:39 pm »

David, I agree with the rest of the members that this is a 20th century or later bottle....John
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2022, 10:35:22 pm »

Hi David

You are welcome!

The attachments are fine. Just that they are oversized.

If you can reduce the image size to 640 pixels (height), it would be perfect.

Regards.


Richard
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