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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
December 04, 2022, 04:39:57 pm
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Underglaze Blue and Iron Red Designs

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Author Topic: Underglaze Blue and Iron Red Designs  (Read 355 times)
bambooforrest
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« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2022, 12:15:36 pm »

This is the finest of my doucai bottles [66mm]. Pictured in the ICSBS book 50 for 50 #6. Painted with 9 auspicious vessels and dated 1821 to 1850 by Clare Chu.


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* DA DOUCAI5 (2).JPG (148.62 KB, 777x500 - viewed 6 times.)

* DA DOUCAI6 (2).JPG (149.49 KB, 775x500 - viewed 7 times.)
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2022, 12:42:30 pm »

Dear John,
it is a very nice bottle, really nice; but IMO the description is an example of the typical inflation of terms made by dealers (I suppose that you are reporting the description made by the dealer).
First at all, it is not doucai. Doucai is different, very typical, and easy to spot.
Besides that, I never heard about "nine auspicious vessels". I know about the "nine cauldrons" motif, but not about nine vessels of different type. I may be wrong on this, it will be interesting to hear Richard about that.
Kind regards
Giovanni
 
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Joey
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« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2022, 05:25:22 pm »

Dear John,

    I think it is SUPERBLY done, but am not knowledgeable enough about Chinese porcelain
to say if it is 'Doucai' ["All Colours"] enamel and underglaze Blue & White;
or 'Wucai' ["Five Colours"] enamel and underglaze Blue & White.

   But Clare's term 'Nine Auspicious Vessels' [she wasn't the dealer who sold it to John,
but the dealer {and a close friend of mine} who wrote the catalogue,
and she so described it in the ICSBS catalogue, "50 for 50" in 2018,
 for the 50th anniversary of the ICSBS] is indeed 'dealer gobbledygook'.

  The "Nine Ding" [nine archaic bronze cauldrons], the possession of which symbolised
the possession of 'The Mandate of Heaven' [The Chinese concept of the 'Divine Right to Rule'],
is a recognised concept.
I've searched and found no reference to '9 Auspicious Vessels' outside of 'The Nine Ding'.

Best,
joey
« Last Edit: September 05, 2022, 03:02:36 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

richy88
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« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2022, 10:36:22 pm »

Hi all

The subject of this bottle has nothing related to the nine cauldrons.

They are typical decorative objects found in a scholar's studio:

Flowers
Fruits (for consumption)
Fruits (for fragrance)
Ancient bronze vessel
Rocks
Bonsai
Censer
Water pot
Cauldron
Coral branch

They are decorated with auspicious objects such as bats, double fish, and lingzhi.

For your information.

Regards.


Richard
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Richard from sunny Singapore
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« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2022, 01:32:10 am »

Dear Joey, all,
Doucai is referred to a kind of decoration on porcelain, on which the underglaze blue is sketching the whole scene. It means that everything has blue contour lines, which are filled with pale polychrome enamels. They are very typical and so immediately spotted as such.
I am glad that you and Richard confirmed my second point, which confirm my opinion: a case of description inappropriately “enriched”, which was not necessary, being the bottle really nice. What is hurting in these cases is that, in time, the inappropriated term will end up being adopted, as is the case of the "Master of the Rocks".
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Joey
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« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2022, 02:02:18 am »

Dear Richard,

   Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge of Classical Chinese Art subjects.

And Dear Giovanni,

   Thank you for clarifying the term 'Doucai enamels'.
My close friend Clare Davies Lawrence Chu is a wonderful person,
but she was infected with the need to 'gild the lily' in  'dealerese' when describing items on an invoice,
probably by Bob Hall when she worked for him, although the disease was no doubt enhanced by
her weakened resistance to BS terminology due to verbal infection while studying
sociology and psychology in university.  Roll Eyes Shocked Wink
And we can't forget that buyers [myself included. Sigh...] LOVE the complimentary verbiage to our new treasure... Roll Eyes  Shocked Cheesy

Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2022, 02:22:10 am »

"And we can't forget that buyers [myself included. Sigh...] LOVE the complimentary verbiage to our new treasure..."
Yes, THAT is the weakest point of all collectors as we are!
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Joey
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« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2022, 02:32:37 am »

"And we can't forget that buyers [myself included. Sigh...] LOVE the complimentary verbiage to our new treasure..."
Yes, THAT is the weakest point of all collectors as we are!

Yes Giovanni,
    But I hope that being aware of it, we can at least try to guard against it...
As the Talmud Says, "Happy is He who hopes and believes...."  Roll Eyes Shocked Cheesy
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

bambooforrest
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« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2022, 12:55:44 pm »

Giovanni, text from the 50 for 50 book if you do not have it....John


* 50 FOR 50 (2).JPG (243.14 KB, 690x600 - viewed 7 times.)
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John O'Hara

Joey
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« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2022, 04:25:39 pm »

Actually, John, Clare made a few mistakes in that description.
There are no 'Palace Kilns' in Jingdezhen,
since there was no palace there.
The correct name was 'The Imperial Kilns'...

And the assorted vessels were not 'Auspicious'.
The correct group are the 'Nine Ding' [or 'Nine Cauldrons'],
which were symbolically the vessels used to feed the people,
a symbol of the ability of the Emperor to care for his people,
and thus a sign that the Emperor had 'The Mandate of Heaven',
like the Western concept of 'The Divine Right of Kings', taken
from the Hebrew Bible.

Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2022, 05:07:02 am »

Dear John, agree with what said above by Joey.
But the bigger mistake is to call the bottle as being of doucai type. That is a big mistake because it is matter of a completely different family.
If you google for "doucai", you will see the big difference. First at all everything is outlined in blue, and the enamels are very typical, of delicate light color. No dark green as Clare is saying that is on the bottle.
Kind regards
Giovanni

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« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2022, 11:50:29 pm »


All, was doing a little snuff bottle research this evening and came across a bottle similar to John's recent posting.  This bottle does have a Daoguang mark.  Providing it here for those that wish to see a similar example.

Link: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/110995140_chinese-blue-and-white-enameled-snuff-bottle-daoguang

Charll


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* 110995140_7_x.jpg (54.23 KB, 748x749 - viewed 1 times.)

* 110995140_9_x.jpg (65.97 KB, 900x899 - viewed 4 times.)
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

bambooforrest
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« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2022, 07:58:24 am »

Charll, thanks  for the research. This example seems to have more muted colors....John
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2022, 11:56:06 am »

Quote
This example seems to have more muted colors....John

John, I would consider the colors as bright pastels.   Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Joey
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« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2022, 01:55:37 pm »

Both bottles are beautiful.
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2022, 02:33:11 pm »

Yes, both are lovely.
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