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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
December 04, 2022, 04:57:32 pm
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Underglaze Blue and Iron Red Designs

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Author Topic: Underglaze Blue and Iron Red Designs  (Read 355 times)
bambooforrest
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« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2022, 07:29:21 am »

Joey, I was thinking they were possibly Republic. The spoons are very well carved and the tops look older. Were they still making the hand carved stands in the 90's?
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2022, 03:05:08 am »

Dear John,

  That is a possibility. I am not aware of hand-carved stands being made after
The 1940s.
 But that does not say they werenít.
Could you post views of the stands?
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

bambooforrest
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2022, 07:14:32 am »

Joey, I have a picture of one of the bottles with it's stand. The other one got separated.


* POR B&W&IRON (2).jpg (125.12 KB, 373x800 - viewed 12 times.)
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2022, 07:19:53 am »

Dear John,

  That type of carved stand was not made after 1940s, in my experience.
So Republic could be the right period.
Best
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

bambooforrest
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2022, 07:58:24 am »

Joey, that was my thinking also.
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2022, 02:37:50 pm »

Dear John,
I must that I am sharing Joeyís perplexities, because the bottles are really odd.
The face of the dragon is not as expected, the smearing of the blue is not made as it usually is, those dots on the lower border of the scales, where they have no sense, the tall characters of the mark, the interesting but new (to me) representation of the nails alone emerging from the cloud, the lack of wear on the red, etc, are odd.
I canít say that they are new for sure, but I have some reservations, sorry.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Joey
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« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2022, 02:53:55 pm »

Dear John,

   After Giovanni listed all the things that confused me as well,
I am also not so sure if it is even as old as Republic.
Sorry,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

bambooforrest
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« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2022, 12:28:00 pm »

Giovanni and Joey, I have to say that I was concerned about all the things listed. I just can not understand how they could add a nice top and spoon and a stand and sell it for what I paid. A little variation on the theme is this bottle [77mm] from the Dr. Weaver Collection. It features a 4-clawed iron dragon with overglaze blue enamel. If you look at the second picture you can see a piece of the blue cloud missing.


* KA IRON BLUE1 (2).JPG (121.32 KB, 301x800 - viewed 12 times.)

* KA IRON BLUE2 (2).JPG (124.86 KB, 301x800 - viewed 8 times.)

* KA IRON BLUE3 (2).JPG (121.93 KB, 307x800 - viewed 6 times.)

* KA IRON BLUE4 (2).JPG (116.07 KB, 557x500 - viewed 3 times.)
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2022, 12:35:56 pm »

Dear John,

  That enameling looks very thick.
Isnít that an odd location for wear?
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

bambooforrest
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« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2022, 01:36:37 pm »

Joey, the blue enameling I can feel with my finger. The iron decoration I can not. It looks like either the glaze or the enamel broke off.


* KA1 (2).JPG (227.57 KB, 865x1089 - viewed 9 times.)
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2022, 04:55:51 pm »

OK, John.
Interesting.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2022, 04:21:11 am »

Wow, that is really uncommon! Dear John, I do not remember of having seen before a similar bottle with the overglaze blue.
I believe that it is rare, but I would like to hear Charll about this, because he has seen much more than myself.
Kind regards
Giovanni
 
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« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2022, 04:23:45 am »

PS: what we see there is flaking off of the overglaze blue, because of bad adhesion to the glaze. It was a common problem in the earlier times of overglaze blue, during Yongzheng.
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bambooforrest
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« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2022, 07:03:10 am »

Joey and Giovanni, I do not remember seeing another bottle with overglaze blue. Is it possible they were trying to re-create that style from Yongzheng?
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2022, 09:59:53 am »

Dear John,
difficult to say which was the intention of the decorator. The overglaze blue at that time was associated with other enamels, it was usually seen on famille verte ware.
BTW congratulations for a rare bottle.
Giovanni
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bambooforrest
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« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2022, 01:40:45 pm »

Giovanni, thank you. Have you seen any snuff bottles where they have used this technique?
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2022, 02:30:09 pm »

Dear John, as said before, if I am not wrong I have never seen the overglaze blue on a snuff bottle.
Overglaze blue appeared first under Kangxi, on famille verte ware. To overcome the serious problems of adhesion that they had, they added some flux to the enamel, which produced a typical rainbow-like halo on the glaze surrounding the border of the blue (and the green and the aubergine) enamels. This effect is a good key to spot genuine Kangxi and Yongzheng ware. Later, the problem has been solved and the halo is no more there.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2022, 04:42:29 pm »


Giovanni,

Regarding the use of blue enamel over a glazed bottle, I'll have to check my collection to see If I have one.  None come to mind.  Regardless, as everyone is pointing out the use of blue as an overglaze is rarely seen.  I've seen one or two the past, but all tend to be later and/or cotemporary bottles as I recall. The closest example I have to John's is a dragon motif bottle with overlay black enamel smoke whiffs/clouds.   

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2022, 06:18:42 am »

Thank you dear Charll. BTW in the case of Johnís bottle I do not think that it is modern. The face of the dragon and the white enamel on teeth and claws are pointing toward Guangxu in my opinion.
Giovanni
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bambooforrest
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« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2022, 07:26:57 am »

Charll and Giovanni, if my memory is correct I have only seen this one. Judging from the painting of the dragon I would agree with Giovanni's dating.
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John O'Hara

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