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July 25, 2021, 02:22:53 pm
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Jiaqing Medicine Bottle / Black Versus Famille Rose

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Author Topic: Jiaqing Medicine Bottle / Black Versus Famille Rose  (Read 720 times)
George
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« on: January 17, 2020, 04:25:34 pm »

Is there something about the dark colored painting on this Jiaqing medicine bottle that made it exceptionally desirable ?

I don't think "famille rose" medicine bottles like this from the same period ever fetch nearly as much money.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/snuff-bottles-from-mary-george-bloch-collection-part-iv-hk0524/lot.159.html?locale=en

« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 06:30:03 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2020, 06:37:03 pm »


George,

The only thing I see is that someone paid far too much for provenance.  This appears to a post 1860's bottle to me, though the auction house description says otherwise.  If truly mark and period of Jiaqing, I would expect far more precision in the painting of the design and the gold enameling should be contained within the black framing of the border; i.e., not slopped over the lines.  Also, the period mark is poorly done which again leads me to post 1860 piece.  To me this bottle's value is far less than $1000, and I would say someone paid $770 for bottle and $7000 for the provenance. 

Charll
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2020, 07:26:34 pm »


 I would expect far more precision in the painting of the design and the gold enameling should be contained within the black framing of the border

Thank you Charll. I thought it was a crazy amount for it.

I thought all bottles ( medicine or otherwise) labeled Jiaqing came with the gold over the blue underglaze ? 

Here is one within Raymond Li's, "The Medicine Snuff Bottle Connection", and another within a November/December 1976 Arts of Asia Magazine..

They are the only examples I can find without the gold, but I sort of thought all Jiaqing bottles (medicine or otherwise) all had the gold ?

After seeing these examples, guess I was wrong.



* medicine1.jpg (367.67 KB, 1506x688 - viewed 17 times.)

* medicine2.jpg (272.43 KB, 487x1308 - viewed 15 times.)
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2020, 09:29:59 pm »

This is exactly the kind of stuff I come to this forum for. An education you can't find anywhere else. Thank you Charll and George.

Brian
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2020, 12:34:10 am »

George,

My reference is not to the gold being applied over an underglaze or overglaze.  It goes to the quality and precision of how it is being applied; high detail and craftsmanship.  This bottle reminds of the stenciled IPBs where the applied paint coloring is hurriedly applied and goes outside and/or over the stencil lines. 

Given the bottle’s small size (3.4 cm or 1 3/8 inches), this appears to just be a novelty piece made for export.

Though your reference could be correct, I suppose it could be a pretty and quickly produced medicine container from the Jiaqing period.  Maybe it’s value is like paying $2000 for a half size glass coca-cola bottle from the 1960s; NOT!!!! 

Charll 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 12:56:08 am by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2020, 07:30:35 am »

Dear George,

     I agree with Charll, as to value of bottle and value of hype and BS.
But why do you call it a 'medicine bottle'?
You could call ALL snuff bottles 'medicine bottles' since snuff was considered a medicine...
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2020, 12:13:51 pm »

Dear all,
here is the bottle compared with a detail, covering exactly the same size of the bottle, of a Qianlong export tea dish.
Then, a gain the bottle compared with a detail of the same area of a Qianlong export tea caddy.
As you can see, nothing special about the detail of the bottle.
Also, in the long description of the bottle provided by Sotheby’s they say that, if you would enlarge that scene to the size of a scroll, it would perfectly look as a paint.
That is not true, if you can imagine it like the scene on a scroll, the house being in a landscape, between the tree and the mountains, it would result as being enormous.
That is a further example, if necessary, of the fact that the Auction houses do sell what they want, not only what is valuable. And especially, what belongs from inside the circus, regardless if really valuable or not.
My personal conclusion is what I said recently in another thread, commenting the Auction houses/magic bunch of dealers/collectors/provenance circus: do rely on your brain and evidence, not on what said by such personages.
Kind regards
Giovanni
PS: NOTE: This is Sotheby's, the top of the top!!! And the provenance too, the top of the top!!!!


* IMG_1.jpg (81.72 KB, 1100x448 - viewed 26 times.)

* IMG_2.jpg (64.03 KB, 1100x352 - viewed 19 times.)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 12:15:24 pm by Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush » Report Spam   Logged

George
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2020, 01:25:31 pm »


But why do you call it a 'medicine bottle'?
You could call ALL snuff bottles 'medicine bottles' since snuff was considered a medicine...


Some bottles characteristics suggest their original purpose was specifically medicinal, I think this is one.. 

I do understand that snuff was considered a medicinal, but correct me if wrong,  I think it depended upon the ingredients blended in with the tobacco. Tobacco that was not part of the bottles contents when some bottles were specifically intended for pills, oils, and medicinal powders..

Thank you very much for the explanation and comparisons Giovanni !
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 01:29:37 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2020, 03:59:03 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

     Superlative explanation!

Dear George,
 
     The difference in these bottles, was usually based on their mouth shape.
Powdered substances, like snuff, had a straight 'neck'/ 'throat' /'lip'/ ? ( Internal part of the bottle's mouth ). Others had a curved one...
But snuff itself was considered the 'medicine', George. Not what was added to it.
The Chinese added substances to weaken the strength of the 'medicine'.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2020, 08:47:50 am »

Giovanni,

Excellent argument, accompanied by the images of qualified examples.
I like the figure with dog in the foreground of the tea dish!

Cheers,

Rube.

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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

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