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Question About Possible Snuff Bottle Pouch

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George
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« on: December 18, 2019, 12:14:06 pm »

Can this be the correct shape for a snuff bottle pouch ?


* pouch.jpg (291.85 KB, 896x673 - viewed 11 times.)
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2019, 12:38:16 pm »

Dear George,

    The Chinese had a number of shapes for their pouches, depending on what they wanted to carry. That is not one of the shapes for carrying a snuff bottle,
though it looks very nice.
Best,
joey
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 02:46:20 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2019, 08:54:15 pm »

Dear George,

    The Chinese has a number of shapes for their pouches, depending on what they wanted to carry. That is not one of the shapes for carrying a snuff bottle,
though it looks very nice.
Best,
joey

Thank you Joey Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2019, 09:32:28 pm »

Hi George,

Joey is right. They used different pouches for different things. And I agree, the one in your photo looks very attractive.

As an aside, here are two pouches I found in Mongolia....

The first one is influenced by the Chinese ones, but with a Mongolian decorative motif.

The second is typically Mongolian (new, but based on the older ones). The idea is that the bottle is slipped into the slit and slides to one end. You then take the 'empty' end, tuck it under the lower edge of your waist sash and pull upwards until the bottle's bulge stops it being pulled up any further, then fold the loose end down over the top of the sash.

Tom 


* RIMG0705-lo.jpg (76.82 KB, 800x600 - viewed 12 times.)

* RIMG0715-lo.jpg (108.1 KB, 800x600 - viewed 12 times.)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 09:35:34 pm by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2019, 01:32:01 am »

Thank you very much Tom Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2019, 02:48:11 am »

Tom,

    Those are both interesting, the top one a traditional snuff  bottle pouch, and the second, a modern take on it.
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Joey
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2019, 03:16:45 am »


    Those are both interesting, the top one a traditional snuff  bottle pouch, and the second, a modern take on it.


Dear Joey,

A small correction:
     The first (top) pouch is of traditional Chinese style, with a Mongolian motif embroidered on it.
     The second one is a very traditional Mongolian carrying pouch. This type of pouch has been in use for many centuries, used for carrying all kinds of small precious items while riding on horseback, including snuff bottles. While the one in my photo is newly made, it follows the style of the old ones in every respect. I saw old ones for sale in Ulaanbaatar, but the asking prices were crazy.

Best,
Tom
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2019, 01:03:49 pm »

Here is a Mongolian bottle with what I believe is the original pouch/case.  Have not seen something like this before.

Perhaps it would wrap around the owners belt ?

Coming up for auction.. Will share again if I win it !




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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2019, 02:21:54 pm »

Dear Tom,

    I stand corrected. But I've seen Qing Dynasty Chinese Snuff Bottle pouches with that same decoration, and indeed, since the Qing were Manchus, and closely connected to other Nomadic peoples, such as the Mongols, it is not odd to see Mongolian design elements in Northern Chinese crafts.

   And also Tibetan, since the Qing, from the Qianlong Emperor at least, if not even further, with the Kangxi Emperor, were strongly influenced by Tibetan Buddhism.

    What I did not realise, though you wrote something to the effect, was that the second pouch, though done with what look like Chinese brocade, is actually copying an even older [in Mongolian context] pouch made as a rectangle, with the slit in the middle, and used as you described.
Thank you,
Joey



    Those are both interesting, the top one a traditional snuff  bottle pouch, and the second, a modern take on it.


Dear Joey,

A small correction:
     The first (top) pouch is of traditional Chinese style, with a Mongolian motif embroidered on it.
     The second one is a very traditional Mongolian carrying pouch. This type of pouch has been in use for many centuries, used for carrying all kinds of small precious items while riding on horseback, including snuff bottles. While the one in my photo is newly made, it follows the style of the old ones in every respect. I saw old ones for sale in Ulaanbaatar, but the asking prices were crazy.

Best,
Tom
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2019, 02:23:41 pm »

Dear George,

    That looks very interesting!
And with a leather 'pouch', too.

Best,
Joey
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2019, 02:11:48 am »


....I've seen Qing Dynasty Chinese Snuff Bottle pouches with that same decoration, and indeed, since the Qing were Manchus, and closely connected to other Nomadic peoples, such as the Mongols, it is not odd to see Mongolian design elements in Northern Chinese crafts.

   And also Tibetan, since the Qing, from the Qianlong Emperor at least, if not even further, with the Kangxi Emperor, were strongly influenced by Tibetan Buddhism.

    What I did not realise, though you wrote something to the effect, was that the second pouch, though done with what look like Chinese brocade, is actually copying an even older [in Mongolian context] pouch made as a rectangle, with the slit in the middle, and used as you described.


Dear Joey,

     A treatise on Mongolian motifs by Terese Tse Bartholemew includes one very similar to that seen on my first pouch, which is the reason I called the embroidered work on it Mongolian.
     But you are quite correct - there was a considerable amount of cross-cultural influence between Chinese, Manchu, Mongolian and Tibetan arts & crafts. As I dare say there still is today, an example being the Chinese style of brocade on the second pouch (although the Mongolians selling them insist it is a 'local' brocade!). 

Best,
Tom
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« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2019, 02:36:28 am »


Here is a Mongolian bottle with what I believe is the original pouch/case.  Have not seen something like this before.

Perhaps it would wrap around the owners belt ?


George,

     You seem to be on a roll with pouches! This one looks quite intriguing. I've never come across one like it before, and have no idea how it would be worn / carried. Good luck in winning it.

     Regarding the 'Mongolian' bottle accompanying the pouch, I have the following comment: Over the course of five visits to Ulaanbaatar I came across a fair number of snuff bottles, but never found any like this (which I always understood to be Mongolian from descriptions in snuff bottle publications). When I asked a local why there weren't any to be seen, his answer was that they are Tibetan, not Mongolian!

     Since other Mongolian artifacts seen in their cultural museum do include silver-work inlaid with coral and turquoise, I conclude that they perhaps did make snuff bottles of this kind in the 18th and 19th centuries, but no longer do. And, since snuff bottles continued to evolve and be used up to the present time, that style was long ago replaced by what one sees today.

Best,
Tom
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« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2019, 04:28:56 am »

Dear Tom,

     Now, I'm more confused.
     I remembered you stating that you were told while in Mongolia, that snuff bottles with Turquoise & Coral inset in silver, were Tibetan, not Mongolian, according to your Mongolian contact.
     But I don't remember you stating that such work WAS considered Mongolian in the 18th & 19th C., based on artifacts in the Mongolian museum.
So are you saying that they could be Tibetan and/or Mongolian, if from the 18th or 19th C.?
     And I know Bukharan Jewish and non-Jewish jewelry inset with Turquoises and Corals. Could these snuff bottles actually be coming down the Silk Road from farther West?
   
    I thought the snuff bottle and leather carrying case [pouch?], might have been suspended from a toggle, like a Japanese Netsuke.

    In Arts of Asia, I once read a story about a Netsuke collector from the UK, who, in the early 1970s, traveled in Afghanistan. He asked around for anyone with 'Japanese ivories', and met a serious local man, with an amazing collection.

   Having only a relatively small sum at hand, he bought them for well below their real value, and lied to the owner, re.their actual value.
He had to wait for a bus out, and fell asleep. He awoke to discover that the netsuke had been stolen out of his bag.

   Personally, I wondered why he was not honest, and figured out a way to pay fair value. From the story, it seems obvious that the Afghani was an honourable man, and if offered a fair price, would have made sure the pieces
were not stolen back.

    I recount this, to suggest that if Japanese Netsuke were available in Afghanistan, they or Chinese toggles [fulfilling the same purpose], should have been available to Mongolians, etc.
Best,
Merry Christmas [2 more shopping days! Grin]
 & Happy Hanuka [tonight till the 30th],
Joey

   I recount
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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2019, 10:09:52 am »

Dear Joey,

That's a story with a moral! As we'd say in England, he got his just desserts. Do you think the Afghani collector stole them back, or a third party made off with them? If the latter, I wonder if fate caught up with him too.

Coming back to the snuff bottle in George's photo, I only formulated the 'hypothesis' as I was writing my post today. Just to make myself clear, I did NOT see any inlaid silver snuff bottles at the museum, only other personal accoutrements with this kind of embellishment.

But I take your point - I'm sure there was a thriving trade along the old Silk Road, as well as other less well-known north-south routes. For instance, I remember reading an account of a 19th century traveller to Tibet.** The author noted that the Tibetans had a fondness for smoking, and that tobacco and snuff were sourced in Darjeeling, and openly traded along the passes into Tibet, all the way up to the edge of Mongolia. 
[** The Unveiling of Lhasa, by Edmund Candler]

Happy Hanuka!
Tom
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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2019, 03:13:08 pm »

Dear Tom,

     The writer seemed to think that the thief was in service to the seller.

     It is not important, in my opinion, whether there actual snuff bottles of this type to be seen there now; it suffices that there was work of this type available in Mongolia at that time.
Best,
Merry Christmas, and Happy Hanuka!
Joey



Dear Joey,

That's a story with a moral! As we'd say in England, he got his just desserts. Do you think the Afghani collector stole them back, or a third party made off with them? If the latter, I wonder if fate caught up with him too.

Coming back to the snuff bottle in George's photo, I only formulated the 'hypothesis' as I was writing my post today. Just to make myself clear, I did NOT see any inlaid silver snuff bottles at the museum, only other personal accoutrements with this kind of embellishment.

But I take your point - I'm sure there was a thriving trade along the old Silk Road, as well as other less well-known north-south routes. For instance, I remember reading an account of a 19th century traveller to Tibet.** The author noted that the Tibetans had a fondness for smoking, and that tobacco and snuff were sourced in Darjeeling, and openly traded along the passes into Tibet, all the way up to the edge of Mongolia. 
[** The Unveiling of Lhasa, by Edmund Candler]

Happy Hanuka!
Tom
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