Click On Globe To View Forum Visitors From Around The World

About This Forum

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.

"The Peter Bentley Snuff Bottle Collection"
and "introduction by Bill Patrick"


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
January 28, 2022, 11:11:26 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Contact Login Register  

Sauterelles snuff bottles

Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Sauterelles snuff bottles  (Read 889 times)
Angela
Jr. Member
**
Gender: Female
Posts: 68



« on: April 05, 2019, 12:15:43 pm »

Hello everyone, I send some pictures - hoping that I have well done resizing.. - of some snuffs I recently bought with subjects inspired to spring just arrived here - even earlier than expected.
Greetings Angela


* Sauterelle1.jpg (81.59 KB, 682x682 - viewed 54 times.)

* Sauterelle2.jpg (183.86 KB, 800x598 - viewed 27 times.)

* Sauterelle3.jpg (186.79 KB, 800x598 - viewed 47 times.)

* Sauterelle6.jpg (139.76 KB, 800x598 - viewed 35 times.)

* bat e spoon.jpg (169.29 KB, 800x598 - viewed 60 times.)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 03:41:34 pm by Angela » Report Spam   Logged

Angela

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

Rube
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Posts: 823


« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2019, 12:39:46 pm »

Angela,

Snuff bottles are a great diversion from work and daily disturbances!
I like the subject matter of your bottles and wish you a wonderful Spring!

Cheers,

Rube.
Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector

Angela
Jr. Member
**
Gender: Female
Posts: 68



« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2019, 02:07:16 pm »

Thank you dear Rube. I agree you are right. I bought some bottles recently, I would like share in the forum, if George allows it?.. I hope so. Thank you. Angela.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 03:43:23 pm by Angela » Report Spam   Logged

Angela

Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 3604



« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2019, 04:31:59 pm »

Dear Angela,
nice bottles.
I would like to see, if possible, other pictures of the bottle with the bat. The other side, the perfile and the base.
It is an interetsing one. If it were not for the bat, judging by the shape alone, I would have said that it is a recent bottle. But undoubtedly the bat is not recent.
Kind regards
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

Angela
Jr. Member
**
Gender: Female
Posts: 68



« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2019, 05:07:50 pm »

Caro Giovanni how are you?
Both bottles are not recent: in my very little experience, I presume that the one with the bat dates back to Daoguang period.
Next days I will take other pictures to post.
Have a nice evening - ciao - Angela.

 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 03:44:51 pm by Angela » Report Spam   Logged

Angela

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11166



WWW
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2019, 06:07:16 pm »

I bought other bottles these months and I would share in the forum, if George allows it?.. I hope so. Ciao. Grazie. Angela.

Absolutely !! Can't wait to see them !
Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

My Snuff Bottle Journal
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11166



WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2019, 06:09:48 pm »


 I bought other bottles these months and I would share in the forum, if George allows it?.. I hope so. Ciao. Grazie. Angela.

Absolutely !! Can't wait to see them ! I am guessing both have some age... Look forward to learning what others decide... But for now, I am with Giovanni Smiley
[/quote]
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 09:30:32 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

My Snuff Bottle Journal
rpfstoneman
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2035



« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2019, 09:13:17 pm »


Angela,

Like Giovanni I would like to see pictures of the bottles bottom/base to make a better evaluation.  Both bottles in my opinion were made for export to European and US markets post 1850.  The gold gilt on the mouth on your first bottle is a telltale sign for me.  It appears to be the same that was used on Satsuma export porcelains during the Japanese Meiji Period.  Though your bottles are Chinese, there was a common sharing of enamel materials and technologies throughout the Asian export centers of the time.  In this case the use of enamels across China and Japan. The Meiji period, or Meiji era, is an era of Japanese history which extended from October 23, 1868 to July 30, 1912.  It appears from the limited assessment that I can make, your bottles were likely made sometime in during this date period. 

Charll
Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 9906


« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2019, 11:21:16 pm »

Dear Charll,

    Just a little note to help Chinese speakers who might not know:
Meiji [English transliteration of the Japanese term] = Mingzhi [in Pinyin].

    Funnily enough, while mainly you are correct, for some reason the Japanese never 'shared' or the Chinese never were interested in, the aventurine glass [or 'goldstone']  enamels one can see on Japanese cloisonne but not on the Chinese output.
Personally, I think the Chinese cloisonne would have been much improved with it used as an accent, or even as a background.

I'm confused by the term 'Sauterelles'...
But I would date these bottles to ca. 1865-1910 [ie., after the rebuilding and repopulation of Jingdezhen which occurred after the wholesale destruction and murder by the Taiping 'Rebellion' criminals as they were forced to retreat by the Qing Forces in 1856/1858 [I don't remember the exact year  Roll Eyes Wink].
It took the Qing government 7-9 years to restore Jingdezhen, after the total destruction of the site and murder or enslavement and exile of its population.

Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey


Angela,

Like Giovanni I would like to see pictures of the bottles bottom/base to make a better evaluation.  Both bottles in my opinion were made for export to European and US markets post 1850.  The gold gilt on the mouth on your first bottle is a telltale sign for me.  It appears to be the same that was used on Satsuma export porcelains during the Japanese Meiji Period.  Though your bottles are Chinese, there was a common sharing of enamel materials and technologies throughout the Asian export centers of the time.  In this case the use of enamels across China and Japan. The Meiji period, or Meiji era, is an era of Japanese history which extended from October 23, 1868 to July 30, 1912.  It appears from the limited assessment that I can make, your bottles were likely made sometime in during this date period. 

Charll
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 06:02:02 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 3604



« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2019, 06:25:29 am »

Dear Angela,
to be clear, I was not saying that I think that the bottle is recent. It is the shape that, at least in that picture, looks similar to recent bottles.
But the bottle is, no doubt, not later than early 20th century, Guangxu or earlier as suggested by others, because of the style of the bat, which must be said that it is painted in the same style seen on high grade porcelain.
Kind regards
Giovanni
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 03:50:21 am by Fiveroosters » Report Spam   Logged

Angela
Jr. Member
**
Gender: Female
Posts: 68



« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2019, 05:52:55 pm »

Hi everyone, thank you for the attention paid to my very modest items.
I send additional pictures. Both the bottles are “unmarked”.
Concerning the katydid and bat bottle, I found several similar ones in internet, example the one sold at Roseberys Londres, where the auctioneer description indicates: Jingdezhen, Daoguang period, so I presumed that my bottle too, dates back to the same period (I am not expert)
https://auctions.roseberys.co.uk/m/lot-details/index/catalog/218/lot/94403/
Sauterelle, en français, c'est plus sympa: but no doubt that katydid, grasshopper, etc. are the right terms: obviously.
Concerning the leaf shaped, googling I found similar examples (not many, to tell the truth), also my bottle, that was sold at an auction in Canada, Montreal, two years ago.
Dear George, thank you for your permission to share other pictures of my small purchases of the period. 
You are very nice, and this is the best forum for competence and courtesy.
Looking forward to your verdict, I wish you all a very nice begin of week. Angela.


* IMG_1358.jpg (342.44 KB, 1936x1936 - viewed 18 times.)

* IMG_1363.jpg (459.2 KB, 1936x1936 - viewed 16 times.)

* IMG_1359.jpg (620.45 KB, 1933x1933 - viewed 21 times.)

* IMG_1360.jpg (516.15 KB, 1933x1933 - viewed 22 times.)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 11:44:23 am by Angela » Report Spam   Logged

Angela

Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 3604



« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2019, 02:15:45 am »

Dear Angela,
thank you but you have shown the same side of the bat bottle. I was interested to see the other side and the base.
Is it decorated only on one side?
The base is always important, regardless the presence or absence of the mark. The base is one of the most important points to judge ceramic bottles.
Anyway, I repeat that the bat is very very nice. I see in the new picture that it has also bianco-sopra-bianco details on the wings.
It is my preferred one among those that you have shown within this group.
Kind regads
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

Angela
Jr. Member
**
Gender: Female
Posts: 68



« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2019, 02:33:44 am »

Hi dear Giovanni I am glad that you appreciate my little bottles.
The bottle with the bat, has one katydid on a side and bat on the other side, in light relief.
The bottom is unmarked and conserve a trace of an old inventary number, I read 69, as you can see on the 1st picture that I have sent.
The other has two katydids on both sides and it is very nice too, I like the leave shape, that I have seen in similar examples in museums, I regret the missing of the stopper and spoon that were present at the time of the previous sale at a Montreal auction of december 2017..peccato.
I will try to take more detailed photos and I will send them to you in message.
Ciao, grazie ancora e buona giornata! - Angela
Report Spam   Logged

Angela

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 9906


« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2019, 05:00:49 am »

Dear Angela,

     Good news/ bad news.

If you post the picture of your leaf [singular - leaf / plural - leaves] bottle, from the auction in Canada, I will see if I can match the stopper for you. I have hundreds of stoppers. I will need the diameter in mm. and also the diameter of the opening in mm, so I can send you a matching cork to hold the spoon.
I have bamboo spoons I can send you.  [I also have ivory spoons and bone spoons, but the restrictions by Customs are ridiculous.].
That's the good news.
The bad news - I think the leaf bottle is made in the last 20-25 years.
It looks OTT [over the top] to me.
Giovanni, what are your thoughts? Giovanni is much better on porcelain than me.
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Angela
Jr. Member
**
Gender: Female
Posts: 68



« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2019, 12:07:38 pm »

Dear Joey,
thank you for your kind reply and your very generous offer to send me a stopper with a matching cork, I really don't know how to thank you, grazie!
Diameter: ext. about 1,50 cm.,internal 0,80 mm. - Height about 8 cm.
I send also three additional pictures.
Thank you, also, for the bad news.
Since I have little experience, but I am strongly fascinated by snuff bottles world, from the beginning of my purchases I have established a very, very low budget: I follow my taste, and if cheap, I buy.
In fact I have bought this bottle at a low price, very far from the 1.500 USD of the Valeona Montreal sale.
Concerning the dating, I think that surely you are right, and Giovanni's opinion will be highly appreciated.
I observe that all the 3 auction houses, including the French where I bought it, should read up better before writing that is dating XIXth century.
All the best to you, too - grazie - Angela.








* 540x360.jpg (5.1 KB, 270x180 - viewed 76 times.)

* 540x360 (1).jpg (3.95 KB, 270x180 - viewed 82 times.)

* 540x360 (2).jpg (4.51 KB, 270x180 - viewed 17 times.)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 12:27:35 pm by Angela » Report Spam   Logged

Angela

Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 3604



« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2019, 12:18:19 pm »

Dear Angela,
I have not understood that the bat and the grasshopper were on the same bottle. When I said that the bat bottle was my preferred one, I was going to add that the second preferred one was that of the grasshopper. Then you can figure out how I like that bottle now.
I think that the only a bit raised enamels are those of the grasshopper and the white on the wing of the bat, while the red is very thin because it is iron red, or fer-de-rouge as they call it in France.
Joey is absolutely right and you can see yourself the big difference in how the grasshopper on the bat bottle is painted, compared to those on the leaf shaped bottle.
In conclusion, a nice old bottle and a more recent one.
Ciao,
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

Angela
Jr. Member
**
Gender: Female
Posts: 68



« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2019, 04:16:17 pm »

Hi dear Giovanni, yes it is a single snuff with a bat on one side and a grasshopper on the other, you are right, there is a big difference in quality with the leaf bottle.
Looking better at the leaf sb, it seems that the grasshopper, as well as the side decorations, have been added later because the chrysanthemums and leaves decorations seem to have a different style. Could it be that the snuff bottle did not originally have a grasshopper and colored sides?
I wish you and all a good night sending this picture - made quickly before the cat arrives -, of another sympa snuff of my collection (medicine or snuff I'm not sure) - porcelain quadrangular form, 6 cm. height, with the same decoration on two sides - unmarked!
Ciao - Angela.


* IMG_1384.jpg (424.06 KB, 1296x968 - viewed 13 times.)

* IMG_1379.JPG (354.58 KB, 968x968 - viewed 63 times.)

* IMG_1374 (2).jpg (173.13 KB, 793x1061 - viewed 20 times.)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 11:47:07 am by Angela » Report Spam   Logged

Angela

Angela
Jr. Member
**
Gender: Female
Posts: 68



« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2019, 04:28:20 pm »

Dear Charll,
thank you for your kind message.
I sent today some additional pictures, I submit to your kind attention and I will appreciate a lot to receive your opinion!
Good night, Angela.
Report Spam   Logged

Angela

Rube
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Posts: 823


« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2019, 07:00:09 pm »

Angela,

By any chance, are you taking pictures with your phone?  If so, if you do a slight edit before you send them, they usually will appear right side up, instead of sideways, thus making them easier for viewing.

Cheers,

Rube.
Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector

Angela
Jr. Member
**
Gender: Female
Posts: 68



« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2019, 01:57:33 am »

Dear Rube,
yes I use an iPad mini to take pictures but I am a disaster - I know.
I have modified my message adding other pictures of the snuff, but I am not able to fix them! Sorry..
Angela
Report Spam   Logged

Angela

Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal