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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
December 04, 2022, 04:42:02 pm
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Porcelain Twin (Conjoined) Fish Bottle

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Author Topic: Porcelain Twin (Conjoined) Fish Bottle  (Read 562 times)
rosegl
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« on: November 22, 2018, 07:00:43 am »

Hello everybody,

some monthes ago, I could acquire Carved White Porcelain Snuff Bottle in the shape of two carps rising from the sea, with waves, and fins as handles on each side (unfortunately a bit damaged).

I did some research about it.

• it resembles the carved ivory 'conjoined fish' snuff bottle formerly in the Mary and George Bloch collection. Moss attributes it to the  "Imperial Master, Japan, 1854–1910"
• there is a very similar porcelain item in the Metropolitan Museum of Art (Provenance Samuel Putnam Avery Sr. , New York [until 1879])
• another example was sold in January 1922 at The SALE AT THE AMERICAN ART GALLERIES
CHINESE ANTIQUITIES AND ART TREASURES, Collection of MR. A. W. BAHR.

Now my questions:

(1) Does anybody know of further examples of this mold?
(2) Where could the Bahr example be today (it sold for $ 37.50 to a certain R. Moore)?
(3) What could be the presumable date (the style of the carving points to the early 19th c.)?

Thanks for your help and expertise

Georges


* SB 263-2 Kopie.jpg (95.17 KB, 459x768 - viewed 43 times.)
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George
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2018, 09:57:42 am »

Hi Georges..

Nice looking piece.

I found the ivory one from the Bloch collection, and I do not recall ever seeing this mold pattern for a porcelain snuff bottle before.

Do you have a link for the similar one from the Collection of Mr. A. W. Bahr ?  I found an online catalog, but it does not show a picture for this bottle.

Would like to see a pic looking down on the flared mouth..  It reminds me more of a miniature vase.

 

« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 10:27:24 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

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rosegl
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2018, 10:57:16 am »

Dear George,

you'll find a picture of the MMA bottle under the following link, including a view of the mouth rim<:
https://picryl.com/media/snuff-bottle-8b5dd1

As far as the Bahr catalogue is concerned, the fish bottle is illustrated under no 106: The American Art Association SALE AT THE AMERICAN ART GALLERIES
CHINESE ANTIQUITIES AND ART TREASURES Collection of MR. A. W. BAHR; January 9 to 11 1922  106- -Carved White Porcelain Snuff Bottle

If you need pictures, I can send them to you.
Best

Georges

PS: I wouldn't quote these sources without having done serious research (as I did when I was a professional researcher...)
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Tom B.
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2018, 09:29:32 pm »

Dear Georges,

Another excellent snuff bottle and quite rare i would say.  I have to disagree with the 18th century "Yongzheng" dating in the link that you posted.  The Metropolitan Museum lists it as 18th Century with no mention of Yongzheng:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/41075


Molded porcelain snuff bottles are considered to be an innovation of the late Qianlong period circa 1780.  It is hard to tell on the Museum example, but yours is apparently soft paste porcelain which points to a Qianlong or later date also.  It is also impossible to tell from the meager description given by the Met, but it is possible that it carries a Yongzheng mark which would point to a Daoguang date.  Still a great bottle, congratulations.

Best regards,

Tom B.
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Best regards,

Tom B.

rosegl
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 01:58:39 am »

Dear Tom B.,
thanks for your answer. I never thought to date le mold "Yongzheng". I never saw mentions of a mark. In my view, "early 19th c." is more realistic. The date of acquisition in the MMA case is 1879. Yes, my example is soft paste porcelain. In the Bahr catalogue of 1922, another item is described as "Carved White Porcelain Snuff Bottle Ch'ien Lung. Soft paste, shape of two carps rising from the sea, with
waves, and fins as handles on each side"

Best regards

Georges.
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Joey
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 05:12:34 am »

Dear Georges,

     I disagree with Hugh Moss, and see it as Chinese, not Japanese copy of Chinese. I think the Imperial Ivories came first, most of them, and then the copies in Soft Paste, etc.
I'd date this ca. 1790-1830.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

rosegl
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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 05:40:52 am »

Thanks Joey! I have no opinion about the ivory "imperial master" bottles, but do agree with an early 19th c. date for the porcelain examples. The 'terminus ante quem' is in the 70ties (acquisition date MMA).

Best regards

Georges
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rosegl
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 06:51:42 am »

An additional quest: I just read in a Bonhams catalogue that there was a similar porcelain example in the Chester Beatty Collection, illustrated in Arts of Asia, March–April 1988. p. 61. Does one of you have this issue and could scan the picture? Thanks in advance!

Georges
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2018, 11:02:54 pm »


Georges,

Here is another example.  It is from a presentation at the ICSBS convention this last October on molded snuff bottles.  Hopefully the presentation well come out as an article in the ICSBS Journal within the six months or so.  At present I do not have any further information. 

Charll


* Molded Double Carp_L1170523.JPG (37.24 KB, 190x300 - viewed 25 times.)
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2018, 11:50:53 pm »


An additional quest: I just read in a Bonhams catalogue that there was a similar porcelain example in the Chester Beatty Collection, illustrated in Arts of Asia, March–April 1988. p. 61. Does one of you have this issue and could scan the picture? Thanks in advance!



Georges,

Here is the example from the Arts of Asia article on the Chester Beatty Collection. It is described as:
A white porcelain replica of an ivory original. The mould is in two halves, front and back, which were later joined together. The paired fish motif is a popular emblem of harmony and married bliss. Height 7.8 cms.

Tom


* ChesterBeatty 13.2.jpg (82.96 KB, 600x926 - viewed 21 times.)
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2018, 01:03:49 am »

Dear Georges,
 
     You should have written '1870s', rather than "70ties". When first I read it, I thought you meant 1970s, till I reread the thread.
Best Wishes,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Thanks Joey! I have no opinion about the ivory "imperial master" bottles, but do agree with an early 19th c. date for the porcelain examples. The 'terminus ante quem' is in the 70ties (acquisition date MMA).

Best regards

Georges
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

rosegl
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2018, 03:05:59 am »

Thanks Tom and Charli for your pictures: suddenly the mold doesn't appear to be as rare as George suggested; and thanks Joey for your comment that shows that an awkward formulation can generate misunderstandings.
By the way: another example was posted by Henrik Adey on the facebook group Collecting Chinese Snuff Bottles.

Best

Georges
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George
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2018, 03:28:55 am »

Thanks Tom and Charli for your pictures: suddenly the mold doesn't appear to be as rare as George suggested

Never suggested if it was rare or not, I simply commented that had not ever seen it before.
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rosegl
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2018, 07:01:24 am »

Sorry George, I misunderstood you thinking that a type you never had seen with all your experience had to be seldom!
Georges
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Steven
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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2018, 11:42:55 pm »

Dear Georges,

Thanks sharing a great example of soft paste porcelain snuff bottle.

Cheers!

Steven
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Joey
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2018, 04:34:14 pm »

Dear Georges,

        Because I deal with three languages on a daily basis [Hebrew, English & Arabic], I am more aware than most, of the need for clarity in whichever language I'm conversing or corresponding in.   Though I assume you are in the same situation, in Switzerland, between French, German, Italian and your obvious fluency in English.
Best,
Joey
     
Thanks Tom and Charll for your pictures: suddenly the mold doesn't appear to be as rare as George suggested; and thanks Joey for your comment that shows that an awkward formulation can generate misunderstandings.
By the way: another example was posted by Henrik Adey on the facebook group Collecting Chinese Snuff Bottles.

Best

Georges
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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