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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
November 26, 2022, 05:11:30 pm
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Identification of maks

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Author Topic: Identification of maks  (Read 1187 times)
rosegl
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« on: November 06, 2018, 04:07:22 am »

Hallo,
I havw several porcelain bottle with marks I can't identify even with the help of the Goteborg site. Can some colleague help me to read the?
The first is on the bottom of a black glazed bottle with dragon design. Eventually Tongzhi?
The second is a blue and white dragon bottle. Could it be a shop mark?
Both were bought at auctions in the early 60s.
Thanks in advance!
Georges


* SB 120 Marke red.jpg (58.17 KB, 488x519 - viewed 43 times.)

* SB 120 -1 Kopie.jpg (265.82 KB, 456x803 - viewed 50 times.)

* SB 133 Marke Kopie.jpg (101.15 KB, 529x653 - viewed 44 times.)

* SB 133 1 Kopie.jpg (90.34 KB, 342x712 - viewed 40 times.)
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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2018, 05:44:21 am »

Dear Georges,
I don't know about the marks, but I would just say that both bottles are Guangxu to me.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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rosegl
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« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2018, 08:05:08 am »

Thanks, Giovanni. I agree about late 19. century, but what could these marks mean?
Georges
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Joey
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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2018, 04:30:31 pm »

Dear Georges,

      I agree that the black one is Guangxu, but think that the B&W is Daoguang to Xianfeng
[ca.1820-1855].
The mark on the B&W looks to be 'The Hall of  something or other'.
Sorry I can't be more help.
  Best,
Joey
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 03:47:07 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

rosegl
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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2018, 02:36:24 am »

Dear Joey,

thanks for your insights! Hopefully one of our colleagues will be able to read the chinese mark.

Best

Georges
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Mat
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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2018, 06:44:44 am »

The other mark is just a "Kangxi Nian Zhi" mark, but of course not of the period...
Best,
Matthias
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rosegl
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2018, 06:53:33 am »

Thanks Mat!

Best

Georges
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Joey
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2018, 04:51:40 pm »

The apocryphal Kangxi mark looks transfer-printed rather than painted.
Best,
Joey
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 03:47:32 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

rosegl
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2018, 08:07:32 am »

Dear Joey,
on another board, Cathy Shapiro suggests "chun yin tang zhi". Can you (or can somebody else) confirm this reading? When was this hallmark used?
Thanks
Georges
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2018, 07:09:18 pm »


Georges,

The painted red mark on the blue and white dragon design bottle as Joey indicated is a Hall Mark for we both recognize the last two characters (i.e., the two left up & down characters) as "Tang Zhi" that directly translates to "Hall Made".  Now which hall is it?

Had to get back home to my reference library and the book "The Handbook of Marks on Chinese Ceramics" by Gerald Davison (published 1994) to find it.  Mark number 676 on page 73 of Davison's book which is translated as as the "Hall in the Shade of the Tree of Heaven".

That's the best I can do, Charll   
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

rosegl
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2018, 02:46:07 am »

Thank you very much, Charli! This confirms Cathy Shapiro's reading: "chun yin tang zhi" = “Hall in the shade of the tree of heaven”.
Does Davison give any information about when this hallmark was used?
Georges
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2018, 01:06:19 pm »

Quote
Does Davison give any information about when this hallmark was used?

Georges, unfortunately not in any detail.  Davison's book just discusses the use of the 'tang' or hall mark and the use of 'zhi' to indicate made.  It also addresses the use of other marks indicating place names for a studio, house, or retreat, etc., but only from the pure translation point.  Other then translations for various marks and symbols, there is no other location background information provided.

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

rosegl
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2018, 01:55:21 pm »

Thanks anyway, Charli. Cathy wrote aomething about Qianlong, but Joey suggested Daoguang to Xianfeng from the style of the bottle. So let's stick to that.
Best
Georges
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Tom B.
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2018, 02:10:51 pm »

Dear Georges, Charl, ans all,

Congratulations on an excellent B&W snuff bottle.   Cathy and Charll have already correctly identified the kaishu mark on its base, but you also asked if Davidson supplied a suggested date.  Actually in his latest expanded edition from 2010, the mark is now listed as # 1104 with a suggested date of "Qianlong" period. 

Best regards,

Tom B.
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Best regards,

Tom B.

Joey
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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2018, 02:33:11 pm »

Dear Georges,

     Cathy Shapiro, while very personable one on one, is an 'expert' of about 30 months standing [she'd never seen a snuff bottle, 3 yrs ago, and bought her first 130+ bottles in the first 30 days of her collecting, during Apr.2016, on eBAY.].
I was referring to the style of the dragon as well as the style of the bottle, in my dating.
Based on almost 49 years study. However, it could be a bit earlier. But I strongly doubt Qianlong.
  And, while the Hall mark may well have started in the Qianlong reign, based on what Tom B. quotes, I seriously doubt it had stopped being in use by Jiaqing, etc.
Best,
Joey


Thanks anyway, Charll. Cathy wrote something about Qianlong, but Joey suggested Daoguang to Xianfeng from the style of the bottle. So let's stick to that.
Best
Georges
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 03:45:46 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

rosegl
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2018, 02:40:36 pm »

Dear Joey,
that's why I accepted your suggestion in my last post...
Best
Georges
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rosegl
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2018, 03:33:48 pm »

Dear Joey, after what you said: how would you judge the dragon of our "pillar bottle" (with concentric rings at the base)?
Regards
Georges


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Joey
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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2018, 03:42:38 pm »

Dear Georges,

     Probably 1800-1830, but could be as early as 1795.
Superb example. And probably Imperial Porcelain Works, Jingdezhen.
Best,
Joey
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 03:45:23 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Joey
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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2018, 03:46:34 pm »

Dear Georges,

 Thank you. It is gratifying to be recognised by one's peers.
Best,
Joey


Dear Joey,
that's why I accepted your suggestion in my last post...
Best
Georges
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Tom B.
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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2018, 04:46:55 pm »

Dear Joey,

I never doubted your assessment of the probable date of Georges bottle and would have made a similar suggestion even before reading any of this thread.  I only wanted to add the latest information as per Gerald Davidson's handbook on Chinese marks. As with all Chinese marks we can only give a "no earlier than" date because the "no later than" date is always yesterday. Smiley

Best regards,

Tom B.
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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