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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
December 04, 2022, 03:46:00 pm
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Blue & White Enameled Bottle With Floral Medallion Pattern

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Author Topic: Blue & White Enameled Bottle With Floral Medallion Pattern  (Read 441 times)
rpfstoneman
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« on: September 09, 2018, 12:39:30 am »

 
All,

I picked up another blue and white porcelain bottle recently which I am currently cataloging.  It has a floral medallion pattern in both underglaze blue and overglaze enamels.  I cannot find too many snuff bottle examples with a medallion pattern on them.  The only similar example is Lot 105, In Search of a Dragon, in Joey's collection.  Though it is possible this this bottle is a later than 1850, it really feels like it could be from the Daoguang period (1821-1850).  The hue of rose and turquoise enamels have more of a pastel appearance in comparison to the palette used in the last half of the 19th century, particularly in the Guangxu Period.

I am looking for a sense or conformation from others on my dating.  Also, over time would like to see other porcelain bottles with  medallion patterns added to this thread.  Enjoy, Charll

Blue & White Enameled Porcelain Snuff Bottle:
Ovoid shape porcelain body painted with combination of 34 under-glazed blue and over-glazed enameled floral medallions.  One red enamel medallion is gilded.  A bat and double diamond pattern on neck.  Appears to be a 2-half molded bottle.  Glazed interior.   

The base has an underglaze blue six-character apocryphal Qianlong mark.    Height is 2 3/4 inches or 7.5 cm without stopper. 

Period: 1820-1880

Condition: Very good with just one minor firing flaw on the enamel.  Mouth of bottle abraded from use.  No stopper at purchase.

Provenance:  Wooly & Wallis Auction House, UK, 11/15/17, Lot 681
                      Hannam’s Auctioneers Ltd., UK, 07/18/18, Lot 1362



* Blue&WhiteEnamelled_Medallions(1).jpg (133.41 KB, 800x800 - viewed 32 times.)

* Blue&WhiteEnamelled_Medallions(2).jpg (140.18 KB, 800x796 - viewed 29 times.)

* Blue&WhiteEnamelled_Medallions(3).jpg (75.19 KB, 800x446 - viewed 35 times.)

* IMG_6244.JPG (226.25 KB, 800x1066 - viewed 52 times.)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 12:48:55 am by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2018, 05:34:43 am »

Dear Charll,
what a nice bottle, thank you for sharing.
It is impressive that it has the exact same pattern of Joey’s bottle, the roundels are placed in the same scheme.
I believe that you are correct with the dating. I have not seen these roundels on vases after Tongzhi.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2018, 09:55:28 am »

Really nice bottle Charll..

Spent a little time searching for something similar, but no luck. Can not help with narrowing down a date for you..

I do have a question.. Would this have been fired a couple of times because of having both the blue and other enamel colors ?
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2018, 11:14:01 am »

Quote
I do have a question.. Would this have been fired a couple of times because of having both the blue and other enamel colors?

George,

Actually three firings:
1) Glazing of the cobalt blue.
2) Overglaze enamel.
3) Gold gilding over the overglaze enamel.

Charll
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 07:07:58 pm by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2018, 04:09:36 pm »

Nice one, Charll!

I wish I had one to throw into the mix!

Cheers,

Rube.
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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2018, 12:44:41 am »

Your request is a good challenge as it is difficult finding porcelain bottles decorated with medallions.

Here is an iron red and blue medallion decorated, Jingdezhen , 1800 - 1860

https://tinyurl.com/y83bqhwa







* acharll1.jpg (97.47 KB, 415x587 - viewed 31 times.)
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2018, 05:55:30 am »

Dear George, all,
it would be extremely interesting to ask Christie's why that bottle is believed Imperial.
Ridiculous is the least that I can say.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2018, 10:38:16 am »

Dear Charll,
 
      My bottle, which you posted above, with a picture of your bottle transposed, is
ca. 1853-1858. Why do you think yours is Daoguang?

      It was made in the Imperial Porcelain Works in Jingdezhen, and inscribed during the Taiping occupation of Jingdezhen, ca.1853, after they wrested control from the government forces of the Xianfeng Emperor, but before Jingdezhen was totally destroyed and its population enslaved and exiled, or simply murdered by the Taiping, when they  were forced out by the triumphant government forces in 1855-1858.

      The sources I consulted were not clear when the Taiping were actually forced to abandon Jingdezhen, though they were VERY clear about the death and destruction these criminals sowed there.

    It then took 7-10 years to rebuild and repopulate Jingdezhen with craftsmen and their families, and restore [limited] production, both Imperial and civilian.

Best,
Joey

   
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2018, 01:30:34 pm »


Also, over time would like to see other porcelain bottles with  medallion patterns added to this thread.  Enjoy, Charll



Thought you would like to see an enamel over copper with some nice medallion patterns..

Not sure if that is supposed to be some kind of Kangxi mark ?

« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 05:29:51 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2018, 06:13:05 am »

Dear Giovanni,

      While rereading this, I was puzzled by your comment below, re. "the exact same pattern".
Then I figured it out, or think I did, at any rate.
Charll photographed the entry in my book, with his bottle resting on one of the photos. I wondered, when looking at it today, why there was a decoration in blue around the foot of Charll's bottle. Till I realised it was part of the photo below!  Roll Eyes Grin
Incidentally, there are rondels, or Japanese Mons, also on the sword scabbard bottle, #102.
And I have bought at least one more with mons in B & W, since the catalogue came out in Aug. 2007.
Best,
Joey


Dear Charll,
what a nice bottle, thank you for sharing.
It is impressive that it has the exact same pattern of Joey’s bottle, the roundels are placed in the same scheme.
I believe that you are correct with the dating. I have not seen these roundels on vases after Tongzhi.
Kind regards
Giovanni

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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2018, 01:59:44 pm »

Dear Joey,
thank you, I see now that I have not understood the “trick” at that time.
Strange that Charll did not correct me, my comment must have escaped to him.
Kind regards
 Giovanni
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2018, 09:29:16 pm »

Quote
Strange that Charll did not correct me, my comment must have escaped to him.

Giovanni, yes it did.  The comment got past me. 

What I was trying to do with the overlay onto Joey's book was 1) show that my bottle was relatively the same shape and size as Joey's and 2) provide the description of Joey's bottle as it relates to the subject matter on the medallion design.  Robert Kleiner in many of his publications on snuff bottle collections went to the effort of portraying the snuff bottles so that the pictures represented the snuff bottle's actual size.  This size format is something I always appreciated in Robert's documentation work.   

George, regarding the enamel on copper bottle, I saw that one as well.  Still trying to assess how old that bottle is?  Based on the auction house location and the base mark I see it as relatively new.  But regardless it is a pretty bottle.

Charll
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2018, 01:26:53 am »

Dear Giovanni,

      Carl Barron or his heir Kenny, might have wanted it to be 'Imperial'. Or possibly Robert Kleiner had sold it to them as Imperial. Or it was simply a sales pitch. Though from the evidence, not a great sales pitch [it sold VERY reasonably, even for a non-Imperial example  Grin].

      Possibly, this subject in Chinese porcelain is rare enough, and the examples which exist are fine enough, that they felt they could go for an Imperial attribution.

Or possibly they were using my #102 and #105 examples in "Dragon", the first "Attributed to", and the second  stated as, "From" the Imperial Porcelain Works in Jingdezhen.

      Incidentally, see #110 for a bottle with 'Mons' that Robert did not describe as 'Imperial', though he might have [it is a great example, IMO, based on the design and the firing of the copper red].

Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey




Dear George, all,
it would be extremely interesting to ask Christie's why that bottle is believed Imperial.
Ridiculous is the least that I can say.
Kind regards
Giovanni

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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