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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
December 04, 2022, 04:53:07 pm
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Dragon - Mark is Yongzheng .... maybe?

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Author Topic: Dragon - Mark is Yongzheng .... maybe?  (Read 450 times)
Stewsnuff
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« on: September 07, 2018, 01:14:21 am »

OK, the next bottle that was in my purchase is this one.

It is marked "Da Qing Yongzheng Nianzhi" and is a blue five-toed dragon.

I would like to elicit opinions on whether this is in fact, YongZheng.


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« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 10:13:07 pm by Stewsnuff » Report Spam   Logged

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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2018, 05:37:31 am »

Dear Stew,
it seems that you have a great bottle there, but the pictures are not sharp enough (are you using the phone perhaps?). I canít understand if the scales of the dragon are cross hatched or drawn individually with curved lines.
That dragon is not a common one, the face is not that of the typical Guangxu dragons.
I do not know exactly what this means, perhaps it has some Qianlong features.
Sharpest pictures would help and I am eager to hear Charllís opinion here, he has much more experience than myself on dragons bottles.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Joey
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2018, 09:12:17 pm »

Dear Stew,

     Your title is misleading.
Are you asking if this mark is a Yongzheng mark?
Incidentally, it does NOT say "Yongzheng 1723-1735"; it reads "Da Qing Yongzheng Nianzhi" ["Great Qing {Dynasty} Yongzheng Period Made"].
Yes, it is a Yongzheng reign mark.

    Is it a GENUINE Yongzheng reign mark  from the Yongzheng reign?
99% that it is 19th C.
Yongzheng period reign marked SBs recognised as genuine, are VERY rare. I am blessed to have one of the few.

    I personally think that there are more out there than are acknowledged, and Giovanni is right that the photo of the mark is too blurred to really tell.

And he is also correct that the bottle looks to be a beauty, which I'd love to own.
And I have over 30 Dragon subject B & W Underglazed Porcelain SBs, among my over 160 B & Ws...  Roll Eyes Grin

Best,
Joey
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 03:15:37 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Stewsnuff
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2018, 10:20:37 pm »

Giovanni, yes, these were photographed lazily with a macro app on my phone. So, I broke open the real Macro Lens. I hope these photos are a modest improvement.

Joey, I corrected my lead post and restated the mark. Thank you for the comment.

I still don't know whether the photos are clear enough but, I do not see any overlapping lines on the scales. But, please advise your opinions...

If photos are still not good, I'll bring to my office on Monday.


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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2018, 01:18:19 am »


Stew and Giovanni,

This bottle has me stumped a bit by the dragon's facial features (great detail, but no inner fangs at the back of the mouth).  Definitely old when you look at the pictures closely.  I agree with Joey, 19th century and l would have said the second half (1850-1908).  My reasoning for this impression on the date is the scale lines are straight cross-hatching (Guangxu 1875-1908 era style) until the pattern is pinched where it approaches the clouds/smoke drifts, then they appear to be individually drawn with more curvature.  The dragon is very furious or ragging in appearance which also strikes me as 2nd half of the 19th century in style.

Nice bottle and one I would love to have as well!

Charll 
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Stewsnuff
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2018, 01:28:24 am »

Please let me know if there are any other areas I should photograph.
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Joey
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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2018, 03:29:32 am »

Dear Stew,

     I'm not as good as Giovanni & Charll at details WHY it is first part [ca.1800-1855] or second part [ca.1865-1908] of the 19th C., plus end of Guangxu reign.

     The gap of 10 years [ca.1855-1865] is due to the Taiping destruction of Jingdezhen ca.1855 and its rebuilding and repopulation ca.1865. The Taiping murderers not only destroyed the site and all installations [kilns, workshops, etc.] , they enslaved those who could be worked and murdered the rest. Like 'good' totalitarians everywhere [Communists, Nazis, ISIS, etc...].

    But it looks very good, from the still too fuzzy photos. I'd like a clean set of photos, ideally.

    I am in the strange [for me!  Roll Eyes Grin] position of not having my SB literature here in my new place yet; not even a copy of "Dragon" ["In Search of a Dragon", Robert Kleiner, 2007].

    Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

   
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2018, 08:27:48 am »

Dear all,
thanks to the new set of pictures it is clear now that the scales are cross harched. I agree with Charll and Joey then , it must be a second half of 19th C - Guangxu bottle, though with a strange face. Nice bottle indeed.
Kind regards
Giovanni
 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 12:54:55 pm by Fiveroosters » Report Spam   Logged

George
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2018, 10:45:42 am »

Wonderful bottle Stew..

Just for your records, the scene is that of a "dragon chasing the flaming pearl in the sky."

You can see a part of the shallow concentric rings under the applied glaze.


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« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 11:01:41 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2018, 12:58:48 pm »

Dear George,
just to be precise.
There are no shallow concentric rings. That is part of the process of foot carving, it has not been well finished.
If there were concentric rings it would not be possible to have the underglaze reign mark.
Kind regards
Giovanni

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« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2018, 03:30:52 pm »

Dear George,
just to be precise.
There are no shallow concentric rings. That is part of the process of foot carving, it has not been well finished.
If there were concentric rings it would not be possible to have the underglaze reign mark.
Kind regards
Giovanni



Ah..., thank you Giovanni  Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2018, 04:54:50 pm »

Dear George,

   As well as Giovanni's correct points, I've not seen a bottle with glaze over the shallow concentric rings. Bottles with such a detail tend to have an unglazed foot, in my experience.
Charll, have you seen any with glaze over the rings?
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2018, 11:20:43 pm »

Quote
Charll, have you seen any with glaze over the rings?

No Joey, I have not.  Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Stewsnuff
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« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2018, 08:19:51 pm »

Dear all,

I can confirm that there is no set of of concentric rings that is discernible by my inexperienced eyes.  Grin

This is great information!

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