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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
December 04, 2022, 04:28:43 pm
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Cockerel marked B and W bottle.

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Author Topic: Cockerel marked B and W bottle.  (Read 551 times)
forestman
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« on: June 01, 2018, 03:54:14 am »

Happy to say B and W is not an area I know anything about but a lot of 2 bottles came up recently as part of a collection and I got them for what I felt was a good price considering how much they can go for.

Height is 65mm, good spoon with a blue glass stopper on a stained ivory/walrus ? collar with a paper wrapped cork. I haven't seen another cockerel base mark before so would appreciate any input if anyone can help.

Regards, Adrian.


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albert
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2018, 08:22:32 am »

Thanks for share it, it is very nice! unfortunately I can not say any about B and W snuff bottles, for me it's impossible see the difference among modern and old items! Huh

Best,
Albert.
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Joey
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2018, 01:06:10 am »

Dear Adrian,

     It looks very good to me, but I am bad at assessing over the internet.
It will be interesting to hear Giovanni's opinion, and Steven's.
    To me it looks like a very good quality soft paste porcelain SB, ca. 1840-1880 [except for ca.1855-1865, from the Taiping total destruction of Jingdezhen and its inhabitants, to its partial rebuilding and repopulation by the Qing government; since during that period there was no production].
     Re. the rooster 'mark'; it could be a potter's personal mark, but equally, it could be part of a rebus message in the decoration of the bottle.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 04:22:27 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2018, 02:26:35 pm »

Dear Adrian,
only now I am seeing this your bottle, thanks to Joey’s post. It escaped me when you did post it.
It is very strange to me. Judging by the potting, it seems an old one. The base, foot and shape are convincing and I understand Joey’s opinion.
What is strange to me is the decoration. The trunk of the palm is strange, isn’t it with that V shape? And the grass at its base too is drawn in a strange way. The style of the only figure that we see entirely too is strange.
What do you Joey think about the rooster on the base, have you already seen that?
My conclusion is a strange decoration on a bottle that is convincing looking old.
Don’t know what to say exactly.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Joey
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2018, 04:30:04 pm »

Dear Giovanni,
   
     The bottle looks 'right' to me for a mid-19th C. soft paste B & W.
Re. the rooster on the base: I suggested it could be a potter's personal mark, or be part of a Rebus message from the bottle.

     Is that definitely a palm ? Those look like Plantain leaves to me.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

rpfstoneman
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2018, 11:00:50 pm »

Adrian,

Congratulations on picking up some very nice bottles recently.  I was looking at the same l lots as well but did not bid. Here is another recent comparison to the blue and white bottle you posted here.  I like your bottle a bit better.

Link: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/60893234_two-chinese-porcelain-snuff-bottles

Charll
 
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Joey
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2018, 02:07:58 am »

Dear Charll,

     That bottle looks almost identical to Adrian's purchase.
How could 2 almost identical ANTIQUE examples surface so closely?
Are these actually fakes?
Perturbed,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2018, 04:13:40 am »

Dear Joey,
you are right, I do not know why I have written "palm", I was probably almost sleeping Grin.
As for your last question, I am not saying that Adrian's bottle is a fake, I repeat that I have not a firm opinion about it, it so strange. But I must say that since a while I am seeing a lot, really many, old looking bottles that are suspicious, and in particular so many blue and white ones.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2018, 03:00:14 pm »

Joey,

It's my sense your original assessment of Adrian's bottle is about right as based on an internet evaluation.  I was speculating the bottle and design to be from the 2nd half of the 19th century.  I too considered bidding on both lots at Chiswick London auction and the Alex Cooper auction in Towson Maryland (USA)  that had this blue and white figural designed bottle recently.  However, I was pursuing other bottles at the time.   

Remember you keep telling us that bottles are often created in series or as a group for presentation.  There of course are individual designs, but many are produced as a group and even in gross (144 or more) for the export market in the late 1800's.

Here again is a blue and cooper red bottle I paired up from a UK and Florida auction in 2016.  I do not consider these fakes or reproductions.  Just a couple of bottles with the same design that were scattered across the globe.

Link: http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1491.msg34293.html#msg34293

Link: http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1491.msg42378.html#msg42378



Giovanni, a rooster base design or mark is not that uncommon.  I have seen a few over the last 10 years or so.  My thinking is that the rooster could be related to the story line of the bottle's design or may simply be a zodiac|year mark on the bottle. 

Charll     
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Joey
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2018, 06:22:17 pm »

Dear Charll,

     Of course you are correct. Coincidences do happen.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

forestman
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 04:17:09 am »

Thank you all for your comments.

While the subject is the same as the bottle Charll posted the style of painting is different and the bottle shapes are different around the neck. Having the same scene repeated on bottles is not unusual as Charll has said.

I am no judge of B and W and bought because the rest of the bottles from the same collector were good and in the auction only certain materials were getting good prices with glass and these B and W's being overlooked.

At least I now have added B and W to my collection  Grin

Regards, Adrian.
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