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May 19, 2024, 12:28:04 am
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Black Lacquer on Copper - Need a Little Help

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Author Topic: Black Lacquer on Copper - Need a Little Help  (Read 370 times)
rpfstoneman
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« on: October 18, 2023, 11:34:06 pm »


All, this is a bottle I was able to acquire from the recent online Bonham-Skinner auction in Boston that ended Oct 17, 2023.  Do not have it in hand yet.

But while waiting to receive the bottle I'm looking for conformation on the motif.  I believe it is an image of He Xiangu, correct?



He Xiangu (meaning "Immortal Woman He") (Wade-Giles: "Ho Hsien-ku" ) is the only female deity among the Eight Immortals figures in Daoism. She is often described as a morally pure woman, an ideal daughter, and a selfless seeker after spiritual freedom. In iconography, she is typically pictured bearing a lotus flower or a peach (of immortality).  She is one of the few female deities revered as members of the Daoist pantheon.

The bottle is stated to be a gold gilt motif on a lacquered copper snuff bottle.  Of flattened round flask form, decorated with a female deity in a roundel on one side, a peacock on the other, the sides with a floral scroll design, orange agate stopper, ht. 2 1/2 in.  Ca. 19th/20th century.

Any conformation on the deity image would be appreciated.

Charll



* Skinner3a.jpg (153.21 KB, 900x900 - viewed 15 times.)

* Skinner2a.jpg (79.4 KB, 900x900 - viewed 9 times.)

* Skinner1a.jpg (131.02 KB, 900x900 - viewed 15 times.)
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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richy88
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2023, 01:18:33 am »

Hi Charll

Nice find!

However, I beg to defer on the subject of this bottle.

He Xiangu, one of the legendary eight mortals is normally featured with a lotus in one hand.

In this case, the lady was dressed in armour and carrying a sword in one hand with a flag in the other. The flag was used to signal the troops during battles.

On the landscape in the background, there is a boat depicted as well.

Based on these data, the lady should be the lady general of the Song Dynasty, Liang Hongyu (梁红玉).

According to historical records and some classical novels, she helped her husband, General Han Shizhong (韩世忠) to defeat the northern barbarian tribe, Jin from invading China.

One of the major victories was the battle at Huang Tian Dang (黄天荡), a marsh whereby Liang personally used the drum to command and coordinate the Song troops for the attack.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

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Richard from sunny Singapore
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2023, 02:30:36 am »

Dear Richard,
as usual, I am impressed. You are our encyclopedia.
Dear Charll, you are specialized in finding special bottles. It is the first time that I hear about lacquer on copper.
Congrat.
Giovanni
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2023, 03:33:21 am »

Dear Charll,

  Sounds like a special bottle.
Iím sorry I canít confirm any of the above, but feel sure
That Richard can confirm his hypothesis.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2023, 06:17:19 am »

Charll,

Another interesting acquisition - congratulations!
Like Joey, I don't think I have ever come across a lacquer on copper bottle before.
I am intrigued as to why the bird on the reverse side is orientated to be seen with the bottle's opening facing right.

Tom 
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bambooforrest
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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2023, 07:44:37 am »

Charll, that is a bottle I would like to see in person. I thought Richard would know the motif.
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John O'Hara

rpfstoneman
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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2023, 11:34:18 am »


Richard,

Take a second look at the deity.  It appears that there is a flower being held up in the left hand.  Also, not sure the linear feature is a sword.  It may be a rod, a fly whisk, or some feature that has lost definition from age.   

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2023, 02:16:00 pm »

Dear Tom, the bird is right, I believe that you are mistaking its crest with the face.
Dear Charll and Richard, while in my opinion the lady is holding a flower and not a flag in her left hand, I believe that Richard is correct because He Xiangu is normally portrayed in a quieter attitude, less ďdynamicĒ.
Kind regards
iovanni
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2023, 02:51:12 am »


Dear Tom, the bird is right, I believe that you are mistaking its crest with the face.


Dear Giovanni,
Now that I looked at it again, I see that you are right. Thanks for correcting me!

Regards,
Tom
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2023, 05:22:08 am »

Actually Tom, I have come across a number of snuff bottles which are lacquer on copper.
But they are all Cinnabar Lacquer.
Iíve never come across a painted lacquer on copper snuff bottle,
And I suspect that you were referring to the same thing type.
Best,
Joey



Charll,

Another interesting acquisition - congratulations!
Like Joey, I don't think I have ever come across a lacquer on copper bottle before.
I am intrigued as to why the bird on the reverse side is orientated to be seen with the bottle's opening facing right.

Tom 
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2023, 12:49:13 am »


Actually Tom, I have come across a number of snuff bottles which are lacquer on copper.
But they are all Cinnabar Lacquer.
Iíve never come across a painted lacquer on copper snuff bottle,
And I suspect that you were referring to the same thing type.


Joey,
You suspect correctly...!

Best,
Tom
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2023, 01:42:04 pm »

Guys, I am finding that examining bottles on my iPAD is
Actually easier and better, than on my computer.
I can more easily enlarge the illustrations.
I write this because this gilt on black lacquer on copper
Design is so much easier to examine and enjoy
on my iPAD.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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