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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
January 27, 2023, 10:49:32 am
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Underglazed Blue and Copper Red Designs

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Author Topic: Underglazed Blue and Copper Red Designs  (Read 7077 times)
richy88
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« Reply #120 on: October 23, 2022, 02:25:15 am »

Hi Charll

You are welcome!

Just to add, there was another two-character inscription, Hua Zun on the bottle which means flower garden.

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #121 on: October 23, 2022, 07:47:15 am »

Richard, thanks for the lesson on Chinese names. I had no idea they were so complicated.
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2022, 05:08:51 pm »

Richard,

That's fascinating. Thanks for the lesson.

Brian
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Brian – A third generation collector with champagne tastes and a beer budget.

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« Reply #123 on: October 23, 2022, 05:35:46 pm »

Yes, Richard.
Many of us got interested in Chinese Art as a way of learning about China
And her culture.
Thank you,
Joey
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richy88
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« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2022, 10:59:32 pm »

Hi all

Thanks.

To illustrate it further, here is another example.

Most of you will know about Su Dongpo, the poet from the Song dynasty.

However, Dongpo is actually his art name/nickname. His given name is Su Shi (苏轼), alias Zizhan (子瞻), art names/nicknames Dongpo (东坡居士, 东坡 in short), and Tiě guān dàoren (铁冠道人) which literally means the Iron Crown Taoist.

Just to add, the Chinese have a traditional naming system in their family and clan. For example, Su Shi's younger brother is named Su Zhe (苏辙). From their given names, you will notice that they have the same radical in them, the left portion (车). With this, it is quite easy to identify which generation a person belongs to in the clan for the same generation will share the same radicals or pattern.

Another example is the seven sons of Yang Ye (杨业) in the novel The Yang Family Generals. Their names are:

杨延平 Yang Yanping
杨延定 Yang Yanding
杨延庆 Yang Yanqing
杨延辉 Yang Yanhui
杨延德 Yang Yande
杨延昭 Yang Yanzhao
杨延嗣 Yang Yansi
 
You will notice that they all have a common middle character in their names, Yan (延). The Chinese clan also maintains a genealogy record (family tree) and so one can easily locate and identify the order of their seniors, peers, or juniors by looking at their names.

Some may ask how do the parent named their children in the same clan if they are from different families?

Well, the genealogy record will have a written script to follow. This script is sometimes a poem or a classical text. The name will be given according to the order of the text in the record.

Of course, this rule of naming is not strictly followed nowadays although some families still practice it.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard


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« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2022, 11:46:29 pm »

Dear Richard,

   You are our own encyclopedia of Chinese Culture!
Thank you.
 Best
Joey
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« Reply #126 on: October 24, 2022, 04:10:44 am »

Thanks Joey!

You just made my head swell!  Grin Grin Grin

The traditional Chinese has a strict system of naming their male children. If anyone is interested, I will elaborate on it.

Regards.


Richard


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« Reply #127 on: October 24, 2022, 07:38:56 am »

Richard, please do! You are making my head hurt before I have to go to the convention.
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« Reply #128 on: October 24, 2022, 04:17:04 pm »

Dear Richard,

  That sounds very interesting.
Please educate us.
Joey
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richy88
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« Reply #129 on: October 24, 2022, 11:51:32 pm »

Hi all

Here are the details for the Chinese naming system:

When the feudal system was established during the Zhou dynasty (1050 - 256 BC), the hierarchical order of society was introduced. This was further strengthened after Confucius' teachings which stressed that every man has his position in society and should adhere to it.

Therefore, when a child reaches adulthood, the name (Zi字) given will follow a certain pattern in the order of seniority.

The eldest child will adopt the middle character Bo (伯), the next one is Zhong (仲), followed by Shu (叔) and Ji (季) respectively.

One may ask what about the subsequent children? Well, they are considered insignificant, and all can be named Ji (季).

This naming convention can apply to the ladies as well, but they are rarely followed.

In the classical novel, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, the warlord of the state of Wu, Sun Jian (孙坚) had many children out of which five were boys. They are therefore named according to the order:

Sun Ce 孙策, 字伯符 (Bo Fu)
Sun Quan 孙权, 字仲谋 (Zhong Mou)
Sun Yi 孙翊, 字叔弼 (Shu Bi)
Sun Kuang 孙匡, 字季佐 (Ji Zo)
Sun Lang 孙朗, 字早安 (Zao An)

However, this naming order only applies to the children borne by the original wife. It is common in ancient China for a man to have a wife and many concubines.

As you can see from the above list, the fifth child, Sun Lang did not follow the order as he was the child of Sun Jian's concubine. In ancient Chinese society, the children borne by the original wife were known as Di Chu (嫡出). They have a higher status even if they are years younger than their siblings from the concubine.

The child from the concubine is known as Shu Chu (庶出) and is not allowed to use this naming system. Only the eldest child can have the middle character Meng (孟) as an indication. There was no naming rule for subsequent children.
 
Again, in the same novel, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, the powerful warlord Cao Cao's (曹操) Zi is Meng De (孟德), is a child of a concubine.

Similarly, another famous hero, Ma Chao's (马超) Zi is Meng Qi (孟起).

These indicate that they are the eldest child from a concubine and therefore can only adopt the Zi Meng (孟) as part of their names.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard


P.S. Hahaha John. I hope the above will not add to your headaches!  Grin Grin Grin

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« Reply #130 on: October 25, 2022, 03:31:50 am »

Fascinating, Richard.

Much more complicated than the Norman style adopted by the Irish
After Earl Strongbow from Wales, a Norman noble, started to conquer
Ireland in 1169.
Sons of a noble by his Legal wife, for example Gerald, were O’Gerald.
But sons of Gerald by a mistress or a tavern maid, were Fitzgerald.

Best,
Joey
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« Reply #131 on: November 02, 2022, 12:07:26 pm »

Everyone, I am back from the convention and will start posting some more bottles. This example [55mm] is well painted with some misfiring of the copper. The man with the sword reminds me of the Water Margin story. Maybe Richard can confirm.


* IG B&W&R1 (2).JPG (138.66 KB, 393x700 - viewed 10 times.)

* IG B&W&R2 (2).JPG (135.82 KB, 400x700 - viewed 7 times.)

* IG B&W&R3 (2).JPG (141.87 KB, 390x700 - viewed 7 times.)

* IG B&W&R4 (2).JPG (137.67 KB, 399x700 - viewed 9 times.)

* IG B&W&R5 (2).JPG (128.02 KB, 536x500 - viewed 11 times.)
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« Reply #132 on: November 02, 2022, 03:12:03 pm »

Dear John,

   The first 3 characters [right side top to bottom] look like Qianlong Nian.
I'm sorry but I don't recognise the next 3.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #133 on: November 02, 2022, 09:27:56 pm »

Hi John

An interesting bottle.

However, the scene is too generic to specify any story. There is also no prominent character in it. But it looks like preparation for battle.

Joey, the other three characters are "made by the official kilns".

Regards.


Richard

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« Reply #134 on: November 03, 2022, 09:42:38 am »

Thank you Richard.
In that case, I should have recognised them.
I have a B & W bottle with Japanese-style Mons [Medallions?] on it,
made by the Imperial Kilns in Jingdezhen, with that exact inscription,
"Made by the Official Kilns", #105 in "Dragon".
It was made during the 2 or 3 years the Taiping criminals controlled
Jingdezhen and environs, ca. 1853/1854 to 1855/1856.
They weren't allowed to put the Xianfeng Emperor's seal,
and wouldn't put the Taiping pretender's mark.
Then, when the Qing Forces were going to retake the city,
the Taiping criminals forced about 5,000-6,000 inhabitants into slavery,
murdered the rest of the roughly 20,000 population, destroyed the kilns
and the whole city, and withdrew.
It was only rebuilt and working again in 1865, under the Tongzhi Emperor
[who was 9, at the time].
Best,
Joey

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« Reply #135 on: November 03, 2022, 11:33:23 am »

Richard and Joey, thanks for the information. So I guess the bottle could be dated 1853 to 1856?
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #136 on: November 03, 2022, 02:38:46 pm »

Yes John.
Or ca.1854 - 1857.
So ca. 1853 - 1857, during the 2-3 years of the Taiping occupation of
Jingdezhen.
and compare with #105 in "Dragon".
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #137 on: November 04, 2022, 11:37:35 am »

This next example is matching to the one I posted in the B&W thread [80mm]. From a small auction I found in 2010.


* JA B&W&R PAV1 (2).JPG (114.5 KB, 291x700 - viewed 8 times.)

* JA B&W&R PAV2 (2).JPG (117.73 KB, 291x700 - viewed 4 times.)

* JA B&W&R PAV3 (2).JPG (116.7 KB, 291x700 - viewed 3 times.)

* JA B&W&R PAV4 (2).JPG (117 KB, 287x700 - viewed 5 times.)

* JA B&W&R PAV5 (2).JPG (140.46 KB, 597x500 - viewed 3 times.)
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« Reply #138 on: November 05, 2022, 08:10:38 am »

The next bottle is one of my earliest copper red examples [61mm]. I found it at a local auction in 2000. I like the way the hawk is looking at his dinner.


* B&W&R HAWK1 (2).JPG (119.37 KB, 343x700 - viewed 7 times.)

* B&W&R HAWK2 (2).JPG (105.72 KB, 336x700 - viewed 3 times.)

* B&W&R HAWK3 (2).JPG (110.82 KB, 343x700 - viewed 4 times.)

* B&W&R HAWK4 (2).JPG (139.87 KB, 679x500 - viewed 7 times.)
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« Reply #139 on: November 05, 2022, 12:05:01 pm »

Dear. John,

    I can't make out what he's looking at.
It might not be his dinner.

The bottom character is 'yu' [Jade]. It is the character for King ['wang'],
with a dot  on the right side, between the bottom 2 horizontal strokes.

I don't recognise the top character.
Best,
Joey
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