Blue & White Porcelain Bottles

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Joey,
Then I do not know, maybe are there different types? I have seen several times a grey color, sometime very pale, sometime darker.
But I am not a potter, I do not know if other blue colors are called cobalt even if not cobalt, only because of being blue? Now I found a video where it says that the lady was painting with cobalt, but it was a pink liquid!
At this point, I don’t know.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Joey]

Dear Giovanni,

  Oh, that IS confusing!
Is it possible that the  cobalt material which changes to blue
Under clear glaze in the firing, could have different colours?
I was amazed to be told thst this viscous deep chocolate brown material
Turned blue when fired under a clear glaze.
And you saw a pink coloured liquid and was told the same thing?!
Charll, do you have anything that might clear this up?
Best,
Joey

[bambooforrest]

Joey and Giovanni, I always thought that the cobalt was dark grey or black as in this unglazed example. Also in all my searches on the internet on "soft paste" porcelain has one thing in common, that it fired at a lower temperature so that the body is opaque.

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear John,
in other places it say that it needs an higher temperature, which to me suggests that, not being fired higher, the body is not fused hence opaque.
What is clear is that, as said before, it is not a well known matter.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[bambooforrest]

Giovanni, I agree there is a lot of bad information out on the web. The next bottle is matching to my last post on the dragon thread. It came from the same auction, same neck decoration and the same size.

[Joey]

Beautiful  John.
Best,
Joey

[bambooforrest]

This bottle [76mm] and the next bottle in the B&W& copper red section are from the same masters hand. The detail is unbelievable. Maybe Richard knows if anything special is going on in this drawing.

[bambooforrest]

The next example is kind of bulky, but I like the painting [66mm].

[Joey]

Dear John,

     The potting looks to be Daoguang [ca.1821-1850],
but could be earlier.
But the mark looks like the correct Qianlong mark from 1795,
when the Qianlong Emperor abdicated, till 1799, when he died.
Best,
Joey

[bambooforrest]

Joey, the bottle does remind me of Daoguang workmanship. I do not know why they would put a reverse "S" on a Daoguang bottle.

[richy88]

Hi John

Are you referring to the right character on the base mark?

Regards.


Richard

[richy88]

Hi John

Coming back to your previous bottle. (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1291.0/msg,61268.html)

I think the subject is Diao Chan (貂蝉), a beauty in the classical novel, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

Diao Chan was a court singer in the residence of a high-ranking official, Wang Yun (王允). During that time, the Han emperor was held hostage by the warlord, Dong Zhuo (董卓).

Being a loyal supporter of the Han court, Wang was very worried of the situation.

One night, he saw Diao Chan praying to heaven asking for help to relieve Wang's worry. Upon seeing that, Wang was moved and took Diao Chan as his daughter. The subject on this bottle depicted that scene.

Later, Wang offered Diao to Dong Zhuo. Diao has a secret mission. She is to create conflict between Dong Zhuo and his foster son, Lu Bu (吕布), a powerful warrior during that time.

She managed to succeed resulting in Lu Bu killing Dong Zhuo in the end.

This was the plan schemed by Wang Yun.

Diao Chan was considered one of the four great beauties in Chinese history. (Joey, here we go again!)

For your reference,

Regards.


Richard

[bambooforrest]

Richard, I am even more impressed that you were able to get all that information from the painting. In the first photo it looks like the woman is holding a baby? Can that be correct?

[Joey]

Dear Richard,

     BAZINGA! [A "Big Bang Theory" reference... ],
Beautiful bottles, John.
Best,
Joey

[richy88]

Thanks, guys!

I am just making a wild guess here as there may be other possibilities. The reason is that Dian Chan is usually depicted together with her lover, Lu Bu.

John, I cannot confirm what she was holding in her hand but if it was a baby, then I am probably barking up the wrong tree! 

Regards.


Richard

[bambooforrest]

Richard, I did enlarge the photo and it does look like a child. Now that you mention that Dian Chan and Lu Bu were lovers the story makes more sense.

[richy88]

Hi John

I think you are right.

So, this is not the story of Diao Chan after all.

The search continues...

[bambooforrest]

This next example [66mm] features two doves looking at a Pekinese dog [Daoguang?] in a garden setting. I found it at a small auction in 2015.

[Joey]

John,

   It has a Ming Dynasty Chenghua mark on the base,
probably an homage to the wonderful B & Ws of that reign.
I'm not sure what the dating should be.
Nicely painted.
It could be ca.1821-1854.
Best,
Joey

[bambooforrest]

Joey, I would agree with that dating. The next bottle is an unusually small [47mm] bottle with roundels. Some of them are very dark, so I think this is a later bottle.