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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


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May 29, 2024, 12:42:29 am
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Blue & White Porcelain Bottles

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Author Topic: Blue & White Porcelain Bottles  (Read 17801 times)
Patricia
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« Reply #520 on: August 18, 2023, 07:48:56 am »

Patricia, if you could post top/bottom and full side views the bottle would be easier to date. Checking the interior construction of the bottle can tell a lot about age. Also try to keep your photos around 100kb.....John

Dear John,

I am afraid my images are limited, but here is a full side view of the bottle. I have always been interested in seeing bases, but never appreciated the need to see the top down shots on most ceramic objects, but now understand that with snuff bottles it is expected. I think this image is a screenshot and 152KB.

Thank you!
Patricia



* Screen Shot 2023-08-18 at 13.45.21.png (147.37 KB, 269x453 - viewed 14 times.)
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Patricia
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« Reply #521 on: August 18, 2023, 07:53:46 am »

Hi Patricia

You are spot on with the description of this bottle.

This is one of the scenes in the novel, The Cases of Justice Bao (Bao Gong An 包公案).

Bao Zheng (包拯), a magistrate judge of the Northern Song dynasty was known for his upright justice and had earned the respect of the people as well as fellow court officials. He was known as Bao Gong (包公) or Bao Qingtian (包青天) which literally meant "Clear Sky Bao" out of respect.

He was known to have solved many difficult cases and brought justice to the victims.

He was also a popular subject in Chinese operas and was often depicted with a black face with a moon symbol over his forehead. This was so as the people believed that he not only works on cases in the day but also served as a judge in hell during the night.

Under the influence of this novel, many similar stories of upright judges were written during the Ming and Qing dynasties.

Due to the mystery-solving details and the desire for justice to be done for the commoners, these novels became very popular like detective stories and crime novels.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard


Dear Richard,

Thank you so much for this additional information. I had never heard of Magistrate Bao, but I know that similar court scenes appear on Transitional and Kangxi ceramics. It is such a great story for a ceramic object. I am very impressed with your knowledge!

Best
Patricia
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bambooforrest
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« Reply #522 on: August 18, 2023, 08:04:49 am »

Patricia, because there is no neck decoration it is a little harder to date. I think that 1820 to 1880 is reasonable....John
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John O'Hara

Patricia
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« Reply #523 on: August 18, 2023, 08:10:29 am »

Dear All,

I have attached two views of a snuff bottle and the subject is a mystery to me. I believe the same subject appears on a snuff bottle in the Princeton Museum, and I have seen a third example here https://snuffbottlepages.com/portfolio/1948/

I am researching the example on the left in each image.

Snuff bottle, porcelain (huashi), of tapering ovoid shape, cylindrical neck, painted in cobalt blue under a colourless, crackled glaze, decorated with a scholar watching from his window three figures in a boat, two have halos or mandorlas and one holds a sword, the other, partly clothed, holds a trident, and another is in the water, they are observed by figures on a rocky riverbank, a seated monk and the immortals Li Tieguai with his crutch and Han Zhongli with his belly exposed, ruyi-head and line bands around the neck and foot, base with four-character apocryphal mark, Yongzheng nian zhi (‘Made in the Yongzheng period’).

1800-1900

The slightly creamy crackled glaze was a deliberate archaistic effect, created by firing the vessels at a lower temperature in an oxidising kiln and known as huashi. It was used from the Kangxi period for small objects requiring fine painting. The same subject, but by a different hand, appears on a snuff bottle in the Princeton Museum, New Jersey, y1936-533.

Any thoughts/corrections very much appreciated!
Patricia


* Screen Shot 2023-08-18 at 13.59.27.png (172.39 KB, 319x316 - viewed 19 times.)

* Screen Shot 2023-08-18 at 13.59.42.png (180.5 KB, 285x369 - viewed 11 times.)
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Patricia
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« Reply #524 on: August 18, 2023, 08:13:44 am »

Patricia, because there is no neck decoration it is a little harder to date. I think that 1820 to 1880 is reasonable....John

Dear John,

Thank you, I find dating very difficult, so I am grateful for the suggestion.

Patricia
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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #525 on: August 18, 2023, 09:56:11 am »

Dear Patricia,
I do not know if you know how to treat images. It is right that the weight of the image (kiloBytes) should be reduced, but that is only for not overloading the platform.
What is important her is the size of the images, i.e. the number of pixels. Your images have only about 300 pixels, which means that they are appearing even smaller than in real and then it is not possible to see the quality of the painting. You should resize your picture to at least 600 pixels or above.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #526 on: August 18, 2023, 10:15:42 am »

Quote
I am researching the example on the left in each image.

Patricia,

The bottle on the left has a 'ruyi-head border' around the neck of the bottle.  It also appears to have a design of darker inky tones than the bottle on the right.  These indicators lead me to think the left bottle is possibly from the Daoguang Period (1821-1850).  Is there a base mark?

In making queries on a bottle it would also help to show a pic of the base.  Such a pic would allow for the evaluation of any mark that would be present and the unglazed foot ring for evaluating dating as well.

A 'slightly creamy crackled glaze' is often referred to as a 'soft-paste' porcelain vs. a 'hard-paste' porcelain which does not have a crackled glaze.   

Charll 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 10:21:29 am by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Patricia
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« Reply #527 on: August 18, 2023, 04:21:55 pm »

Quote
I am researching the example on the left in each image.

Patricia,

The bottle on the left has a 'ruyi-head border' around the neck of the bottle.  It also appears to have a design of darker inky tones than the bottle on the right.  These indicators lead me to think the left bottle is possibly from the Daoguang Period (1821-1850).  Is there a base mark?

In making queries on a bottle it would also help to show a pic of the base.  Such a pic would allow for the evaluation of any mark that would be present and the unglazed foot ring for evaluating dating as well.

A 'slightly creamy crackled glaze' is often referred to as a 'soft-paste' porcelain vs. a 'hard-paste' porcelain which does not have a crackled glaze.   

Charll 

Dear Charli,

Thank you very much for your comments and observations. I have attached a screenshot of the only image I have of the base, apologies for the quality. It seems to have had a rough life with lots of wear.

Best,

Patricia


* 0.png (94.06 KB, 250x240 - viewed 7 times.)
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Patricia
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« Reply #528 on: August 18, 2023, 04:25:49 pm »

Dear Patricia,
I do not know if you know how to treat images. It is right that the weight of the image (kiloBytes) should be reduced, but that is only for not overloading the platform.
What is important her is the size of the images, i.e. the number of pixels. Your images have only about 300 pixels, which means that they are appearing even smaller than in real and then it is not possible to see the quality of the painting. You should resize your picture to at least 600 pixels or above.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,
I apologise for the poor quality of my images, they are screenshots from a document with images imbedded in it and not original .jpegs.
Sincerely,
Patricia
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bambooforrest
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« Reply #529 on: August 19, 2023, 08:08:55 am »

Patricia, your last bottle is the "Legend of the Flood" discussed by Tom and Richard on 9-6-21 under the porcelain and yixing group heading. My own example attached....John


* CHA FLOOD1 (2).JPG (119.43 KB, 326x800 - viewed 14 times.)

* CHA FLOOD2 (3).JPG (206.76 KB, 525x800 - viewed 10 times.)
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John O'Hara

Patricia
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« Reply #530 on: August 19, 2023, 01:18:19 pm »

Patricia, your last bottle is the "Legend of the Flood" discussed by Tom and Richard on 9-6-21 under the porcelain and yixing group heading. My own example attached....John

Dear John,

Thank you so much, I would never have discovered the subject or found the discussion. Your bottle is also very exciting!

Amazing group of Snuff Bottle scholars here on the Forum!

Best
Patricia
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richy88
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« Reply #531 on: August 19, 2023, 09:00:37 pm »

Hi Patricia & John

I have been comparing both of your bottles.

On closer examination, I think the subject of Patricia’s bottles is from the Legend of the Lady White Snake (白蛇传), and not the Great Flood story.

This is the love story between Lady White Snake, Bai Suzhen (白素貞) and the human, Xu Xian (許仙),

The scene on both bottles depicts the rescue of Xu Xian, who was captured by the monk Fa Hai (法海) and was imprisoned at the Jinshan Temple. To rescue her lover, Bai summoned an army of sea creatures and flooded the temple.

From the first photo, we can see Fa Hai sitting in the centre of both bottles with the sea creatures below.

In the second photo, Lady White Snake and her maid, Xiaoqing (小青) was shown with the army of sea creatures.

We can also see the imprisoned Xu Xian in a separate photo at the top of the cylindrical bottle.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard
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Richard from sunny Singapore
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bambooforrest
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« Reply #532 on: August 20, 2023, 07:27:49 am »

Richard, I know on the Princeton bottle I saw a woman with 2 swords?
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #533 on: August 20, 2023, 08:30:17 am »

Hi John

Yes.

The Lady White Snake and her maid, Xiaoqing are often depicted using double swords as their weapons as shown in the image attached.

Sometimes, they are each armed with a spear instead, but less common.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard


* 金山寺.jpeg (15.35 KB, 242x180 - viewed 11 times.)
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Richard from sunny Singapore
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Patricia
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« Reply #534 on: September 02, 2023, 10:57:29 am »

Hi Patricia & John

I have been comparing both of your bottles.

On closer examination, I think the subject of Patricia’s bottles is from the Legend of the Lady White Snake (白蛇传), and not the Great Flood story.

This is the love story between Lady White Snake, Bai Suzhen (白素貞) and the human, Xu Xian (許仙),

The scene on both bottles depicts the rescue of Xu Xian, who was captured by the monk Fa Hai (法海) and was imprisoned at the Jinshan Temple. To rescue her lover, Bai summoned an army of sea creatures and flooded the temple.

From the first photo, we can see Fa Hai sitting in the centre of both bottles with the sea creatures below.

In the second photo, Lady White Snake and her maid, Xiaoqing (小青) was shown with the army of sea creatures.

We can also see the imprisoned Xu Xian in a separate photo at the top of the cylindrical bottle.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard


Dear Richard and others,

Many, many thanks, I would never have recognised the subject depicted on the snuff bottle. I know wonder if the same Legend of the White Snake is depicted on another blue and white snuff bottle in the collection, I would very much appreciate any thoughts on subject, dating and shape.

Snuff bottle, porcelain, compressed cylindrical shape, with rolled neck, painted in cobalt blue under a colourless glaze, decorated with a continuous scene of a scholar seated at his desk in front of a moon-shaped window framing his view into his garden, where a servant carries a snake, also seen floating in a river, the neck with ruyi-head band, the base with two-character mark, wanyu (‘jade trinket’).

1800-1900

The subject could be from the Legend of the White Snake (Baishezhuan).

Apologies for the poor images in advance.

All best wishes,

Patricia





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* Screen Shot 2023-09-02 at 16.52.34.png (166.4 KB, 344x287 - viewed 18 times.)
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richy88
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« Reply #535 on: September 10, 2023, 05:05:15 am »

Hi Patricia

The subject on the last bottle did not seem to be the Legend of the Lady White Snake to me.

However, I have insufficient information to confirm the subject yet until more research is being done.

I will keep you updated in due course.

Regards.


Richard
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Richard from sunny Singapore
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Patricia
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« Reply #536 on: September 10, 2023, 03:38:59 pm »

Hi Patricia

The subject on the last bottle did not seem to be the Legend of the Lady White Snake to me.

However, I have insufficient information to confirm the subject yet until more research is being done.

I will keep you updated in due course.

Regards.


Richard

Dear Richard,

Many thanks for your opinion, it was a guess on my part because of the snake.

Much appreciated,

Patricia



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bambooforrest
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« Reply #537 on: May 10, 2024, 12:20:02 pm »

I just picked up this rather large bottle [100mm] but with a lot of calligraphy. There was a sticker on the bottle which Richard translated as "snuff". Maybe Richard can give a general translation.


* B&W CALLI TALL2.JPG (38.56 KB, 194x500 - viewed 11 times.)

* B&W CALLI TALL3.JPG (39.88 KB, 214x500 - viewed 10 times.)

* B&W CALLI TALL4.JPG (35.51 KB, 317x350 - viewed 10 times.)
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #538 on: May 10, 2024, 06:38:59 pm »

Wow, John!

   That's quite a bottle!
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #539 on: May 11, 2024, 03:00:29 am »

Wow, John!

   That's quite a bottle!
Best,
Joey

I agree and also like it very much.

Pretty sure it is a poem, looking forward to hearing what Richard says. Because all the rows of script are evenly spread out on the bottle, I cannot know which row to start with in an effort to find in any of my Chinese poem's books.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2024, 05:32:16 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

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