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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
January 30, 2023, 11:12:29 am
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Blue & White Porcelain Bottles

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Author Topic: Blue & White Porcelain Bottles  (Read 8243 times)
bambooforrest
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« Reply #220 on: October 14, 2022, 11:19:51 am »

Richard, again your knowledge of Chinese literature impresses me. I have a porcelain bottle with Wu fighting the tiger but I did not know the rest of the story. In the 1st picture there is a white figure in both backgrounds [Wu Dalang?] Is the woman in the painting Pan?  Also what is above the female figure? It looks like a cat.
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John O'Hara

richy88
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« Reply #221 on: October 15, 2022, 12:26:10 am »

Hi John

Yes, I think so too.

Regards.


Richard
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Richard from sunny Singapore
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bambooforrest
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« Reply #222 on: October 15, 2022, 11:41:22 am »

Richard, thanks for the confirmation. The next bottle features the strange undersea creatures. I think Charll has a similar example [71mm]. From a small auction in 2014.


* B&W SEA CRE1 (2).JPG (153.68 KB, 370x800 - viewed 8 times.)

* B&W SEA CRE2 (2).JPG (151.41 KB, 369x800 - viewed 5 times.)

* B&W SEA CRE3 (2).JPG (148.43 KB, 369x800 - viewed 4 times.)

* B&W SEA CRE4 (2).JPG (150.38 KB, 380x800 - viewed 4 times.)

* B&W SEA CRE5 (2).JPG (141.57 KB, 595x500 - viewed 2 times.)

* B&W SEA CRE6 (2).JPG (129.31 KB, 662x500 - viewed 1 times.)
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #223 on: October 15, 2022, 12:08:24 pm »


John,

Another bottle to my taste.  I do not have a bottle with this exact motif and have been on the lookout for one for sometime.  The bottle of mine that is likely coming to mind is the one posted in the left boarder of Forum depicting "NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures".

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

bambooforrest
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« Reply #224 on: October 15, 2022, 12:17:48 pm »

Charll, your bottle is very similar and possibly by the same hand....John
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« Reply #225 on: October 15, 2022, 12:47:55 pm »

Guys, What’s a NeZha or Nezha?
Best,
Jory
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #226 on: October 15, 2022, 12:58:18 pm »


Joey,

See Forum Link for the story of NeZha: https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2850.msg58927.html#msg58927

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #227 on: October 15, 2022, 02:12:11 pm »

Thank you, Charll.
I had totally forgotten those posts.
Probably because the 3 + year gestated ‘meatball’
Reslly grosses me out.
Best,Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #228 on: October 15, 2022, 09:36:22 pm »

Hi John

This is the theme of the eight sea monsters (海八怪), normally seen on porcelain objects.

The mermaid is also a common creature found in Western mythologies.

The other creature, which is a calm lady, is also often featured in battle scenes involving sea creatures, such as in Lady White Snake and the Big Flood.

The other creatures are less common.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard
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Richard from sunny Singapore
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bambooforrest
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« Reply #229 on: October 16, 2022, 08:10:37 am »

Richard, thanks for the information. Some of the creatures looked a little scary. The next bottle is tall [86mm] and features a fisherman. I found it at a small auction in 2004.


* b&w tal land1 (2).JPG (116.69 KB, 281x800 - viewed 10 times.)

* b&w tal land2 (2).JPG (113.76 KB, 271x800 - viewed 8 times.)

* b&w tal land3 (2).JPG (96.49 KB, 278x800 - viewed 3 times.)

* b&w tal land4 (2).JPG (110.75 KB, 287x800 - viewed 5 times.)

* b&w tal land5 (2).JPG (150.89 KB, 634x500 - viewed 6 times.)
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« Reply #230 on: October 16, 2022, 08:39:01 am »

Dear John,

   First, I’d describe this bottle design as a Landscape scene with a
fisherman.
Superbly painted !
The six character Da Qing Qianlong Nianzhi mark doesn’t look
Right, to me. But I’m not an expert on calligraphy.
But an especially well painted example.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #231 on: October 16, 2022, 09:21:54 am »

Hi John

This bottle reminds me of a typical Chinese landscape ink painting.

I have to agree with Joey that the base mark is poorly executed though.

Regarding the last bottle, that is why they are called monsters!

Regards.


Richard
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Richard from sunny Singapore
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« Reply #232 on: October 16, 2022, 12:09:55 pm »


Quote
Regarding the last bottle, that is why they are called monsters!

Exactly, that is why I prefer mystical creatures motifs.   Grin   Charll
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« Reply #233 on: October 17, 2022, 08:11:38 am »

I agree with Charll that mystical creatures sounds better than monsters. Another landscape with a fisherman on the bottom [71mm]. Purchased from a small auction in 2009.


* har b&w land1 (2).JPG (139.87 KB, 358x800 - viewed 4 times.)

* har b&w land2 (2).JPG (138.19 KB, 365x800 - viewed 3 times.)

* har b&w land3 (2).JPG (137.87 KB, 361x800 - viewed 2 times.)

* har b&w land4 (2).JPG (146.19 KB, 354x800 - viewed 3 times.)

* har b&w land5 (2).JPG (140.6 KB, 647x500 - viewed 2 times.)
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« Reply #234 on: October 17, 2022, 08:50:06 am »

Another wonderful painterly B & W landscape.
Beautiful.
Thank you for posting.
Best,
Joey a
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #235 on: October 17, 2022, 08:55:10 am »

I understood that both soft paste and hard paste B & W underglazed wares
Were fired once.
The blank is made, and allowed to dry.
Then it is painted on with the cobalt, which goes on a chocolate brown.
Then after that dries, the vessel is coated with clear glaze and the clear
Glaze is allowed to dry.
And then the vessel is  fired.
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

bambooforrest
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« Reply #236 on: October 17, 2022, 11:20:17 am »

Joey, is the only difference between hard and soft paste porcelain the firing temperature?
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John O'Hara

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« Reply #237 on: October 17, 2022, 01:58:07 pm »

John, I’m not sure.
I was told by Dr. Steven Little that Soft Paste porcelain is
pure Kaolin clay and has a lower firing temperature.
While Hard Paste porcelain is 90% Kaolin clay and 10% Petuntse
(A Calcium Carbonate compound).
But this might not be accurate.
Both Giovanni and Charll know more about porcelain than I do.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #238 on: October 17, 2022, 02:04:38 pm »

Dear John,
I do not know where you have read that the difference between soft and hard paste is the level of the temperature.
We talked about soft paste porcelain a few days ago, I do not remember if even within this same thread or another one, related to blue and white bottles.
As said there, soft paste is not a well-defined matter, it is not completely clear. It seems that it has an higher content of kaolin, thus requiring an higher temperature than hard paste, but as said it is not clear.
The big difference between the two is the almost vitrification of the body, which does not happen for soft paste, hence its opacity to light.
Dear Joey, before firing, the cobalt is not chocolate brown. You are probably mismatching it with cobalt not covered by the glaze, which turn out dark brown/black instead of blue.
The raw cobalt in powder state is dark gray, then it is mixed with liquid clear glaze and brushed onto the body, which can either be in dry state, or in biscuit state. The biscuit is less absorbing, allowing for a finer painting.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #239 on: October 17, 2022, 02:17:13 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

 I must correct one point.
I saw cobalt being painted onto porcelain blanks in Jingdezhen.
It was chocolate brown in colour.
I was told that it was cobalt and would change to blue in colour,
once covered with a clear glaze and fired.
Is this not correct?
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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