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A bottle and itís big mate (1)

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Author Topic: A bottle and itís big mate (1)  (Read 2481 times)
YT
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« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2014, 02:49:43 am »

Dear David,

There are many Canton enamellers' during that period.
In Cantonese, 18 means 'guaranteed wealth'.

Cheers,
YT
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Wattana
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2014, 04:28:18 am »

Hi David and YT,

Thanks for pointing out some alternative 'hidden' meanings of the number 18, and the combination of this number with deer.

Tom
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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2014, 01:44:47 pm »

Hi YT,

Does that mean that it is a possibility that this is from Canton area? Or the person gifting or receiving is from there? Does Canton at that time included Hong Kong?

The other thing I fully recalled now after reading this thread... either from a teacher or the eldest entered senior student.

Is that a dedicated artist will always paint or make exactly 99 whenever drawing/making things like 100 kids, 100 characters of good meaning etc... Because 99 means a lot which is the real meaning of 100 X, but to actually draw 100 it means that you reached the limit/end, so you will stop there and not gain more. So having 99 show dedication to not be lazy and reserve the ability to gain more for the person receiving the painting or bottle.

Those that paint/made less then 99 are lazy, while those that make more than 99 don't know how to count
(his words). But, if limited by space or material, the dedicated artist will choose to use 18, pair of 9s, or 2 different groups of 9, etc... Things that can be interpreted to 99, and show that he was dedicated in making this piece.

Is this true? Or is this something he made up to make us practice harder?

Thanks,
David
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YT
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« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2014, 04:33:29 pm »

Dear David,

You tend to make people think very hard and I'm as puzzled as you to the 99 claims. Do go to the auction websites and see for yourself on the 百子图, some of them by the most famous middle age artist only drew a few children.

Canton enamelers were called into palace workshop during as early as KangXi period and many went into private practice when the palace enamel workshop close in 1789  due to lack of work. Emperor Jia Qing is famous for being frugal and ordered for production of practical products only. Things that are ornamental in nature to stop.

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YT
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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2014, 10:27:36 pm »

Hi YT,

Sorry about that... I don't have too much to rely on right now, excepts fragments of memories. Maybe they made that up to teach us lessons. My teacher likes to take old sayings or knowledge and modify it to make a point.

This one is to teach us to practice up to the point of using 99% of our endurance. Any less then we are lazy, anymore then we are not increasing our skills. At 100, we lose the last remaining energy to think/improve what we learned today. More than 100 then we lose the form and is longer training and is regressing. Not sure if this makes sense, but that was the background and he tells us stories, so we remember the points that he wants to hammer into our heads.

Once I start reading, I will get to learn the more correct version   Cheesy

That is interesting, I can't imagine a later Emperor being frugal. Is it because of lower treasury or he wants to be different then his elders?

Thank you,
David
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« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2014, 11:26:17 am »

Dear David,
    I understood from reading, that the Jiaqing Emperor was disgusted by the frivolous spending at the court and especially by the corrupt behavior of Heshen (Ho Shen), a chief minister at the Qianlong court. There is even a suggestion that Heshen was a 'cut sleeve' (homosexual lover) of the Qianlong emperor in his younger, prettier days...
   Social mores and behavior tend to be a reaction by the son to the behavior of the father.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2014, 10:35:13 pm »

Hi Joey,

Thank you for taking the time to explain that, I would never thought an Emperor/Emperor's son would have the same kind of dynamics as a normal father/son relationship/conflict.

Yes, reaction of the younger to the elder is subtle and very powerful. More powerful when one is an Emperor!  Wink

Thanks,
David
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« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2014, 06:57:21 am »

Dear David,
     What also makes the issue more complicated, is that the Qianlong Emperor abdicated in 1795 after 59 years on the Dragon Throne, in order not to 'outshine' his grandfather, the Kangxi Emperor, who'd ruled 60 years; but he was still really running things till his death in 1799. Which is why that is the year Heshen was arrested, tried, and allowed to commit suicide (rather than execution, which would have been a lot more painful as well as public), AFTER he'd 'voluntarily' handed over his wealth to the clerks of the Jiaqing Emperor.  Wink
Joey
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« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2014, 02:14:26 pm »

Hi Giovanni,

After reading the book by Batholomew on Hidden Meanings, I gave some thought to the spider.

If the red long legged spider coming down, means good fortune/tidiing coming from the sky, is meant for someone that hopes to attain it.

Then if this bottle is for someone that has already attained the rank, fame, and fortune. Then would it make sense for the spider to be inside the web to mean... Guard your good fortunes.

Then taken all together, It means guard your good fortune, may you live a long long time (pair of 9 for long long, longevity for deer).

After becoming rich and famous, then holding on to wealth and staying alive to enjoy it becomes key?

More of my 2 cents, that will be subject to change depending on what books I read next.

David
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« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2014, 02:25:55 pm »

Thank you dear David,
you may be right. The fact is that usually this motif, as also seen in Therese's book, has wasp instead of the spider net and spider. Up to now, I have seen this motif only twice besides my two pieces.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2014, 04:36:29 pm »

Good observation David, and thank you for sharing that ..
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« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2014, 10:35:08 pm »

Hi Giovanni,

After reading her book (a joy, as now I see some of the trinkets I bought in a different light! And giving me extra amusements to figure out the meaning -irregardless of whether it is a real bottle or fake-), a lot of my past fragments of memories are starting to click and makes more sense.

I recall that the head of house tend not to directly tell a branch elder what to do or not to do. But, it will be implied. If the branch elder understand and follows than everyone saves faces and there is no need to explicitly request/enforce it.

So, if that bottle is gift, maybe from a superior or ruthless competitor then it is a warning. If that bottle is commissioned by owner, then it is to tell the superiors and/or ruthless competitor that he is not a threat.

Just keep in mind that I do have an over active imagination too, so I don't know where I end when I start running off with an idea.

 Grin My 2 cents with 2 big grain of salt!

David
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« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2014, 01:38:48 am »

Yes dear David,
I understood that you have a running imagination  Grin Grin. I am on the opposite side, I tend to demystify what is said but not clearly supported especially by some so-called experts. A common example are those who populate television programs.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2014, 11:56:19 am »

Hi Giovanni,

So glad you understand and can accept that.  Cheesy

Warmest Regards,
David
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David

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