Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Public Forum Categories and Boards => Porcelain and Yixing Chinese Snuff Bottles 瓷器和宜兴鼻烟壶 => Topic started by: rpfstoneman on December 17, 2013, 11:01:01 pm



Title: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on December 17, 2013, 11:01:01 pm

All, I'm looking to bring in the dragon pillar bottles under their own thread for ease in locating and comparison.  This is a recent acquisition purchased from Robert Kleiner just prior to the 2013 ICSBS's convention in New York.  This group is characterized by two main things, a dragon motif and a concentric ring base.

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd517%2Frpfstoneman%2FDragon%2520Bottles%2FDragon%2520Pillar%2520Bottles%2F7bf44fba-2f8b-4130-b84d-eec641c7ce17_zpsf1d6de62.jpg&hash=416bd8fc34bf4afd8234ed3451a113c6) (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/rpfstoneman/media/Dragon%20Bottles/Dragon%20Pillar%20Bottles/7bf44fba-2f8b-4130-b84d-eec641c7ce17_zpsf1d6de62.jpg.html)  (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd517%2Frpfstoneman%2FDragon%2520Bottles%2FDragon%2520Pillar%2520Bottles%2F710f1168-e3d6-41ed-8a7b-454dcb25ee8e_zpse32d6e4d.jpg&hash=95d1681faac78b760a74cc1fa9e8507f) (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/rpfstoneman/media/Dragon%20Bottles/Dragon%20Pillar%20Bottles/710f1168-e3d6-41ed-8a7b-454dcb25ee8e_zpse32d6e4d.jpg.html)

Blue and White Porcelain Dragon Pillar Bottle:
A soft paste porcelain blue and white dragon pillar snuff bottle, of cylindrical shape, with a short widely flared neck, well painted in good tones of underglaze blue with a scaly dragon chasing a pearl amid flames motif.  Unglazed potted concentric circle base that is slightly indented.  The stopper appears to be a turquoise colored glass with very fine brown enamel striations imitating turquoise with a little red glass finial imitating agate, and a nylon collar.  This bottle is on the early side for the pillar group for soft paste was a very expensive process and ended by about 1830 and other indicators of an early date, 1790-1830 are the excellent assured painting, the short and widely flared neck, difficult to pot and the very good color of blue (Kleiner, personal communication 11-02-2013).  Height is 7.6 cm without stopper by 3.2 cm in diameter. 

Period: Imperial kilns, Jingdezhen, c. 1790-1830.


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on December 17, 2013, 11:10:04 pm
Very cool and a great idea for a separate topic Charll...

A dragon bottle alone can be real nice, but a pillar bottle with dragon is the top of the line !

Love the bottle Charll, and huge congrats on obtaining it !



Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on December 18, 2013, 12:11:18 am
Very attractive bottle Charll. Congratulations.

Good idea to start a new thread for this topic. There was an ICSBS article focusing on this group of bottles 4-5 years ago. Does anyone remember which issue?

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on December 18, 2013, 12:25:55 am
Very beautiful Charll!   


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on December 18, 2013, 12:52:27 am
Nice bottle Charll!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on December 18, 2013, 03:55:06 am
Superb bottle, congratulations!
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on December 18, 2013, 11:03:46 am
Dear Charll,
      A wonderful bottle. Enjoy it in good health.
Best,
   Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Steven on December 18, 2013, 01:25:17 pm
congrats Charll!!

What a wonderful bottle, I have been trying to purchase one nice Dragon bottle, but the always outbid at then end, and price are going to the roof.:(



Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on December 18, 2013, 09:05:53 pm
Quote
There was an ICSBS article focusing on this group of bottles 4-5 years ago. Does anyone remember which issue?


Yes Tom, here is a link to that article in the ICSBS Journal and I'll leave it here as long as it is funtional: http://www.e-yaji.com/books/articles/the%20wrong%20end%20of%20the%20dragon/index.html#/8/zoomed

Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on December 18, 2013, 09:21:27 pm
Thanks for the link Charll.

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on December 18, 2013, 10:01:54 pm
Quote
There was an ICSBS article focusing on this group of bottles 4-5 years ago. Does anyone remember which issue?


Yes Tom, here is a link to that article in the ICSBS Journal and I'll leave it here as long as it is funtional: http://www.e-yaji.com/books/articles/the%20wrong%20end%20of%20the%20dragon/index.html#/8/zoomed

Charll

Very cool link.. Thanks Charll...  :)


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on December 29, 2013, 08:13:51 am
The forum seems to be dominated by VMIP bottle posts of late. For a little variety here's another dragon pillar snuff bottle.  :D

Cobalt blue underglaze porcelain snuff bottle of cylindrical form, with an everted lip and resting on a flat base with concentric grooves, the decoration depicting a dragon chasing a flaming pearl. Carved coral-coloured glass stopper in the form of a coiled chilong.
Height without stopper: 7.5 cm

Attributed to the Imperial kilns, Jingdezhen, 1780-1840



Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on December 29, 2013, 10:06:34 am
Dear Tom,
   A gorgeous bottle! It makes my mouth water, and I'm also missing my B & W collection, which, with my Jade collection, is in Ireland. Thank you for posting it and sharing it with us.
   Best for 2014,
     Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on December 29, 2013, 11:56:42 am
Stunning bottle and thank you for sharing it Tom !


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on December 29, 2013, 04:56:01 pm
Dear Tom,
"The forum seems to be dominated by VMIP bottle posts of late. For a little variety here's another dragon pillar snuff bottle.": thank you for posting this BIG variety, because I am not a great fan of VMIP bottles. :)
Dear guys, no offence intended to anyone. That is my own taste.
Giovanni
 


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: OIB on December 29, 2013, 07:54:43 pm
Dear Charll,

Congratulations for your excellent acquisition !

Dear Tom,

Thanks for sharing a beautiful bottle.

Inn Bok


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Steven on December 29, 2013, 08:02:26 pm
Dear Tom,Love it! I already put a dragon pillar bottle for my 2014 wish!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on December 29, 2013, 08:15:12 pm
Nice one, Tom!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on December 30, 2013, 08:56:53 am
Thanks for your kind words guys.

Dear Joey,
   I don't know how you manage to stay parted from your collection for so many months.

Dear Steven,
   I hope your 2014 wish comes true!  :D

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on December 30, 2013, 11:37:09 am
Dear Tom,
    In Israel, I have my IPSBs and Chinese paintings to play with; in Ireland, my B & Ws, Jades, and the two boxes of assorted bottles which didn't sell from my general collection, which include some of my best bottles, funnily enough (like my paste gem inlaid Imperial Court tribute bronze bottle, Qianlong period; my carved walrus ivory, Kangxi Imperial Palace Workshops; and a number of other very serious bottles, as well as a few I'd kept for sentimental reasons, but which are also very fine examples).
   Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on April 17, 2014, 01:01:13 am
This bottle was recently purchased in a group lot from RB Gallery in Millbrae, California.  As with all bottles of this type there is a dragon motif and a unglazed concentric ring base.

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd517%2Frpfstoneman%2FDragon%2520Bottles%2FDragon%2520Pillar%2520Bottles%2FPillarDragon_RBGallery2014g_zpsa0c0ffcf.jpg&hash=4972dd0c5533ae0a9283cb8cce3f97c9) (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/rpfstoneman/media/Dragon%20Bottles/Dragon%20Pillar%20Bottles/PillarDragon_RBGallery2014g_zpsa0c0ffcf.jpg.html) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd517%2Frpfstoneman%2FDragon%2520Bottles%2FDragon%2520Pillar%2520Bottles%2FPillarDragon_RBGallery2014f_zpsd02c221d.jpg&hash=b1e6b97da3ba38beb5f75e594e9ba643) (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/rpfstoneman/media/Dragon%20Bottles/Dragon%20Pillar%20Bottles/PillarDragon_RBGallery2014f_zpsd02c221d.jpg.html)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd517%2Frpfstoneman%2FDragon%2520Bottles%2FDragon%2520Pillar%2520Bottles%2FPillar_Rug_zpsc345f915.jpg&hash=60372c61eb92c1cd42341741f5e5cee2) (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/rpfstoneman/media/Dragon%20Bottles/Dragon%20Pillar%20Bottles/Pillar_Rug_zpsc345f915.jpg.html)

An example of a dragon pillar rug which was used to cover temple and pavilion pillars.

Blue and White Porcelain Dragon Pillar Bottle:
A soft paste blue and white porcelain dragon pillar snuff bottle, of cylindrical shape, with a short widely flared neck, and concentric ring base.  Typical five clawed dragon grasping for a flaming pearl amid flames motif.  Scales have nice curvature with a fine blue dot at the base of each individual scale.  Five bats circle between two narrow blue bands or rings that define the neck.  Unglazed potted concentric circle base that is slightly indented.  Jade stopper with sits atop a black onyx collar.  Height is 8.1 cm (without stopper) by 2.9 cm in diameter.   Damage has occurred to the lip of the bottle which has been repaired but left unfinished.

Period:Likely Imperial kilns, Jingdezhen, c. 1800-1850.


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on April 17, 2014, 01:09:37 am
Beautiful bottle Charll,

Very nicely executed dragon scales. And I like the exaggerated flare detail on the neck/lip. A pity about the small area of damage on the lip. This will need one of those gilding jobs that Joey often talks about.

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on April 17, 2014, 10:35:04 am
Another stellar Pillar bottle Charll.. Congratulations !

The repair looks excellent..

Thank you for sharing another beautiful bottle Charll..



Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Steven on April 17, 2014, 01:12:02 pm
Very impressive bottle Charll,

I don't see why it can not be a imperial bottle, well done!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on April 17, 2014, 09:03:08 pm
Beautiful Charll. You guys are getting me into porcelain more and more... 


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on April 19, 2014, 01:38:03 pm
Dear Charll,
    As Tom pointed out, I would do a Japanese style gold lacquer repair to cover the well-done existing repair, for esthetic reasons. But otherwise, a really superb example. Congratulations!
And Happy Easter tomorrow, for those who are Christian,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on October 19, 2014, 10:15:16 pm
Charll...

How much ( percentage ? ) would you guess the repair effected the value for this bottle ?


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on October 19, 2014, 11:29:59 pm

George,

My opinion is the repair brings the value up to at least 50% or more.  A good or traditional repair could be as much as 80% in my mind.   I know there are folks out there that will accept nothing less than a perfect bottle.  But if the bottle was actually used to any extent there should be at least a little wear and tear.  Most antiques in the traditional sense are not perfect, and I am willing to take a little wear and/or repairable damage as such, just as long that the general aesthetics is not measurably impaired. 

Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on October 20, 2014, 12:27:20 am
Ok, thank you Charll..


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on November 14, 2014, 11:33:43 pm
Hi All

Although I have a few porcelain bottles with the dragon motif, I am yet to have a 'dragon pillar' bottle like those featured in this thread.

I managed to get one and would like to have your comments and feedback. The photos are from the seller. I will post my photos of the bottle after I have received it.

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on November 15, 2014, 12:52:11 am
Dear Richard,
   10/10! Superb bottle! The scales are perfect, the base is perfect, magnificent. Even over the 'net, I'd argue that is a genuine Qing Imperial Dragon pillar bottle, ca. 1800-1850.
 Congratulations.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on November 15, 2014, 05:01:49 am
Agree with Joey! Congratulations dear Richard.
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on November 15, 2014, 05:51:06 am
So, Giovanni. You figure Richard found it on Etsy?!  ;)  :D
Just Joking! Just Joking!   ;D   ;)
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey


Agree with Joey! Congratulations dear Richard.
Giovanni



Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on November 15, 2014, 06:39:11 am
Congratulations Richard. A wonderful bottle!

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on November 15, 2014, 07:37:57 am
Hi All

Thank you for your comments.

Occasionally I do take a look at what are being offered in eBay and if you have the time and patience, and look real hard, you may be able to find some good buy.

The same cannot be said on Etsy. To be fair, I just visited the site a few times but the stuff offered are just disappointing. I am not able to find any thing that can arouse my interest.

So Joey, no, it did not came from Etsy!  ;D

I will try to post better pictures once I have it with me. Now, the next task is to find a suitable matching top!

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: AntPeople on November 15, 2014, 07:58:58 am
Very nice bottle !!!!

Congratulation !!!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on November 15, 2014, 08:09:07 am
Beautiful bottle Richy !

The scales are nicely done and the entire blue glaze is nice and bright..  Really a beauty, and congratulations !!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on November 15, 2014, 09:03:32 am
Dear Richard,
    I didn't really explore Etsy, but was trying to get a laugh out of Giovanni.
I realised, from what he and others had said, that it would not be a source of good bottles.
Your new bottle reminds me of #4 in "Dragon".
Best,
 Shabbat Shalom,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Steven on November 15, 2014, 10:39:03 am
Dear Richy,

Congratulations on this wonderful bottle, and I am glad that it founds its good home.

I was one of the lower bidders on this one. its really a wonderful piece.

Steven


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on November 15, 2014, 07:06:26 pm
Richard

Very nice one indeed. I could have been tempted ....congrats!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on November 15, 2014, 08:16:16 pm
Richard, a great bottle!

Well, I was more than tempted on the one.  Sounds like Richard (the successor), Steven, and I were all biding on this bottle.  My budget was not that strong at the moment due to some other bottle purchases or I would have  considered making a better run for this bottle.  Even with the premium and shipping Richard, if the condition is 100%, you got a great deal on this one.  I have some further comments on this bottle but would like to wait to see your pictures once it arrives.  If a hard paste bottle which appears to be I believe Joey's dating is correct, but it could be even a bit earlier.

Charll   


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on November 16, 2014, 08:16:16 am
Hi All

Thank you all for your compliments!

Joey, I think the motif is closer to your #9 in Dragon but it is even closer to Charll's bottle posted in this thread except the the decorations around the neck are different.

By the way, I found some interesting bottles and motifs while browsing through your Dragon book again. I will post it under a separate thread,

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on November 16, 2014, 08:24:28 am
Dear Richard,
   fair enough. The only dragon I really don't like in my book, is illustrated in #7. He looks like he's on drugs! I saw the mate to it among the John Ault bottles for sale at Wooley & Wallis, Salisbury, UK last week, in underglaze copper red. Didn't look any better in that colour...
Best,
 Joey


Hi All

Thank you all for your compliments!

Joey, I think the motif is closer to your #9 in Dragon but it is even closer to Charll's bottle posted in this thread except the the decorations around the neck are different.

By the way, I found some interesting bottles and motifs while browsing through your Dragon book again. I will post it under a separate thread,

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on November 16, 2014, 08:25:55 am
Dear Charll,
    You and Steven were biding; Richard was bidding. That's why he got the bottle.  ;)
Best,
  Joey


Richard, a great bottle!

Well, I was more than tempted on the one.  Sounds like Richard (the successor), Steven, and I were all biding on this bottle.  My budget was not that strong at the moment due to some other bottle purchases or I would have  considered making a better run for this bottle.  Even with the premium and shipping Richard, if the condition is 100%, you got a great deal on this one.  I have some further comments on this bottle but would like to wait to see your pictures once it arrives.  If a hard paste bottle which appears to be I believe Joey's dating is correct, but it could be even a bit earlier.

Charll   


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: OIB on November 16, 2014, 09:00:02 pm
Richard,

an excvellent find ! Congrat !

Inn Bok


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: David on November 16, 2014, 11:10:48 pm
Hi Tom, Richard and Joey,

Why does the base of these bottles have those concentric circle marks? I am currently halfway on Chinese Snuff Bottle, by Perry.

She mentioned in the porcelain section that the pillar bottles are made in a one piece mold and that when they take it out, it makes those mark on the base. But it is very unclear to me... As to why taking it out of a mold will leave such perfect circle marks?

Is there a good beginner book on how chinese porcelain are made pertaining to snuff bottle or a general book?

Thanks,
David


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on November 16, 2014, 11:28:25 pm
Hi David,

A very good question. They only appear on these cylindrical bottles, but not all.

Unfortunately I don't know the reason for them. Richard, Charll and Joey may be better able to give you an answer.

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on November 16, 2014, 11:32:41 pm
David,

The dragon pillar bottles as shown by Richard and myself are potted on a wheel.  When you look inside the bottle you can see remnants of the clay coils or clay rings built upon each other.  So these earlier type of concentric ring bottles are not molded.  The rings on the base I would speculate are either from the wheel or are made by a tool which is used to slightly depress the base once the bottle was formed. This depressed base forms an outer foot ring on which the bottle rests, and likely provides more stability while standing than a that of a flat bottom.

Charll  


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on November 16, 2014, 11:58:46 pm
Charll,

I have seen many dragon pillar bottles with these concentric circles, and having a completely flat base.

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on November 17, 2014, 01:02:38 am
Charll,

I have seen many dragon pillar bottles with these concentric circles, and having a completely flat base.

Tom

Yes, but the flat base bottles tend to be later versions. The flat based concentric ring bottles I have and many of bottles that I have seen with this base style are late 1800 to earlier 1900 bottles, and I suspect not imperial in origin.  This of course is not to say that there cannot be flat based bottles of imperial origin.

Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on November 17, 2014, 01:51:12 am
Dear Tom,
   I would tend to agree with Charll, because all my earlier pillar bottles with concentric circles on the base, have been very gently concave.
   
Dear David,
    WHY do these bottles have this distinctive base? I've no idea, but reckon that Charll's answer, based at least partially on his late mom's being a potter, sounds very plausible.
    Sadly, the two people of whom I could have asked this question profitably, both passed away earlier this year: Robert Kleiner (in Jan.) and John Ault (in Apr.).

  Best to all,
    Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on November 17, 2014, 02:02:01 am
Dear all,
we all know that most of porcelain bottles are made by mould. Usually the joining lines of the two halves are clearly visible inside the bottles, and in some cases outside too, despite the potter should smooth them away. In the case of the dragon pillar bottles with those circular ribs, I suppose (note, SUPPOSE, not supported by facts or documentation) that the ribs are purposely made in so exaggerated way to evidence that the bottle has been thrown out on the wheel, which imply that it is an object made with much more care, a more precious one. In fact it is impossible to have those ribs on a two halves mould. My supposition is supported also by the fact that the bottles with those circular ribs has a much more fine decoration than the common ones. My two cents (or two bucks, I don’t know).
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on November 17, 2014, 02:03:34 am
I note that Richard's new bottle has the double blue lines at the foot, seen on some examples, including one in Charll's earlier posting on this thread. Does that signify a particular production date / period?

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: YT on November 17, 2014, 08:18:51 am
Dear Richard,

I don't quite know how to view blue n Whites. Why don't the 3(Charll and Steven) of you work together to get the bottles that are now on EBay? Looks like quite a few good ones around now.

Sorry if I'm too nosy.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on November 17, 2014, 08:51:21 am
Hi YT

Thank you for your suggestion.

Occasionally, you may find some good bargains in eBay, but extremely rare. I believed Steven and me comb eBay at least once a week with the collector weekly update but most items are new reproductions as far as porcelain goes. I am only more interested in the hardstone bottles as material, not age, is a more prominent factor.

Regards.


Richard



Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on November 17, 2014, 08:53:14 am
Hi All

I will try to do some research regarding the flat and concave base as well as the horizontal blue lines in the motif and keep you updated of my findings.

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on November 17, 2014, 11:20:31 am
I would like to hear Joey, the King of the dragon bottles  ;D, about my theory that the rings on the base are purposely exagerated so to evidence that the bottle has been individually hand made. Dear Joey, would you think that it is possible?
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: David on November 17, 2014, 11:50:05 am
Hi Charll, Richard, Tom, Giovanni and Joey,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question.

That is right (Charll)... I just recalled after reading your post, in that porcelain section of Perry's book, the letter from a porcelain research expert (?), he did mentioned that round shaped are thrown on wheels, while more complex shape are made from mold from what he understand of the record of the missionaries from that time.

So, there is no real published/reviewed consensus/solid research on this?

Hi Giovanni,

I actually like/agree with you theory this time  :o

So, is it possible that the older ones that Joey and Charll have are made by master craftsman that takes the time/effort and can mold something so small by wheel, while the latter ones (either due to productivity or lack of teachings or the masters being assigned to other more important project of the palace) are made by lesser craftsman with mold and then they impress or cut the concentric circles?

Do you know if the porcelain expand or shrink during drying or firing? I was thinking if that is the reason for the bottom of Charll's bottle with inside/outside coils being concave, while the ones that are molded are flat?


Warm Regards,
David


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on November 17, 2014, 02:18:57 pm
Dear David,
I am not sure if I have understood you correctly. It is not the circles on the base that turn a bottle into a fine one. First comes the quality of the painting. I meant that the circles could be a plus, but referring to an already recognized high quality bottle. If the bottle is an average one, circles or not circles it remain an average bottle.
Porcelain has a substantial shrinking during firing. After having been modeled, a piece has a first shrinking while letting it drying before firing, then a further shrinking during firing. At the end of the process, the total shrinking is about 20% if I recall well.
Kind regards
Giovanni
PS: I am not aware of a specific book of snuff bottle making.


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on November 17, 2014, 04:49:53 pm
David.. You got me to thinking, and then to searching !

My knowledge about porcelain is greatly lacking.. Really need some good reference material to learn about some of your questions and many more..

Found and ordered this one.. Hardcover too  ;)

"Chinese Glazes : Their Origins, Chemistry, and Recreation"

From what I can see within the previewed pages (http://books.google.com/books?id=NGw8DUuNywYC&pg=PA232&dq=how+made+chinese+imperial+porcelain&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2XZqVNCsNaGBiwLnuIB4&ved=0CGUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=how%20made%20chinese%20imperial%20porcelain&f=false) this looks like quite an action packed 280 page book..  ..

There are several available for 28.00... http://www.booksamillion.com/search?raresearch=1&id=6162539267174&qisbn=9780812234763&qty_avail=18&chunk=10&qsort=p

Maybe someone else has some book suggestions for learning more about porcelain, how made, glazes etc... Maybe more specific to bottles..  Because I have not handled enough, I still can not even tell the difference between a soft and hard paste..


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: David on November 17, 2014, 07:37:34 pm
Hi George,

 :D I did not even know ceramic, porcelain, stoneware etc... are actually all related until I saw your introductory thread!

I dug around and found a couple bargains (under 10 just to get a feel)  and one or two promising one (did not buy yet):

Chinese Ceramics: From the Paleolithic Period through the Qing Dynasty (The Culture & Civilization of China, Laurie Barns

Chinese Blue & White Porcelain, Duncan Machintosh

But, I need to finish what I bought first. So putting a hard stop on books of knowledge for now.

David


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: David on November 17, 2014, 07:55:39 pm
Hi Giovanni,

I was assuming for equally good underglaze color, painting, glazing etc... Then the concentric circle base might be used to separate older versus newer or palace versus not palace. But, mainly as hand thrown or not.

up to 20%! shrinkage wow, that is a lot. Wonder if this kind of shrinkage causes a lot of the hand thrown one to crack!

Thinking on it some more... as I recalled a movie... Naked Guns where there was a funny scene about pottery mud thrown all over...

So in the beginning, you have a coiled base and wall of mud.

Then the wheel start to turn, throwing the mud around. The craftsman uses his hand or finger or tool to push in to hold the mud from splattering the room and making it into a pillar bottle shape.

The coiling on the outside will be smoothed out due to contact to his hands.

The coiling at the bottom remains, like rings of circles. But is completely flat.

The coiling on the inside remains, and will be pushed up on the internal wall.

Then they take this bottle (keeping it on the board), and let it dry. The they fire it. If it shrinks by up to 20%, then this might be the time when the bottom becomes a little con caved (just a guess...).

So, bottles with these kind of circle (inside swirl circle climbing up, bottom concave circles) are most likely hand thrown, while the flat one are most likely molded.

David


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on November 17, 2014, 08:32:38 pm
Thanks David..

I found the "Chinese Ceramics: From the Paleolithic Period through the Qing Dynasty", but also stumbled upon and ordered this "Chinese Glazes: Their Origins, Chemistry, and Recreation"

A hard copy was only 26.00

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0812234766/ref=tmm_hrd_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&sr=&qid=

That is going to have to be the end of my book orders for some time..  After spending over 700.00 over the past couple days, I am also going to have to put the brakes on any others for a bit !  So will put the Chinese Ceramics book on my wish list..

Thanks David...  :) 


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on November 17, 2014, 08:44:15 pm

So in the beginning, you have a coiled base and wall of mud.

Then the wheel start to turn, throwing the mud around. The craftsman uses his hand or finger or tool to push in to hold the mud from splattering the room and making it into a pillar bottle shape.

The coiling on the outside will be smoothed out due to contact to his hands.

The coiling at the bottom remains, like rings of circles. But is completely flat.


Hi David,
    The rings on these snuff bottles are concentric, not coiled. Consequently, I do not see how they can be in any way connected to the forming process you have described. It seems far more probable that it is just a decorative finishing touch, as Giovanni has suggested.

George and David,
    Thanks for the book suggestions. Your mentioning the Duncan Macintosh book jogged my memory. I had a copy of this one for many years. It was very useful in helping me distinguish Ming wares from more recent porcelains.

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: David on November 18, 2014, 01:00:54 am
Hi Tom,

I guess that is not a good choice of word "coil". If you take a long strip of dough (like a thick rope) or mud, then you cut it into little sections with each section longer then the last.

Then you put a small ball of mud at the center of the board (so when it spins, that ball is at the center of the spin).

Then take the smallest section and surround the ball to form a circle, trim excess.

Then take the next slightly longer section and surround the ball+ 1 circle, trim excess.

Then take the next slightly longer section and surround the ball+ 2 circles, trim excess.

Repeat until the base size is good.

Then add wall, and continue with what I posted earlier.

Will this be reasonable to make the concentric circles?

David




Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on November 18, 2014, 01:47:43 am
Hi David,

You may be right. To be honest, I have no idea. I never got past first grade in pottery class at school! And that was many, many years ago.  ;)

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: David on November 18, 2014, 01:57:43 am
Hi Tom,

It's getting late for me, so I need to go to sleep soon.

I never took pottery class before (think my dad will kill me if I did), but I took "dough kneading" classes when I was a kid. During new year, the ladies are responsible for cooking, and they love to snatch boys in their early teens (enough strength to knead dough, but not old enough to join the men) to help with kneading the dough that will be used to make dumplings, noodles, green onion pancake, and a kind of flour block soup.

So, I had a lot of practice with kneading. And since we get bored easily, we make all kinds of dough shaped things... including sh-t of all shape and sizes.  ;D

Some are coiled like a snake about to strike, realistic like a dog, and others are like ring stacks. Kind of got my idea from there plus that movie scene...

Have a good day (night for me),
David


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on November 18, 2014, 03:39:06 am
Dear George,
“Chinese glazes” by Nigel Wood is considered the Bible of the books on Chinese glazes. Duncan Macintosh’s book too is a nice one. I have about 100 books on Chinese ceramics, but I want to warn you all of what I meant by saying that I am not aware of books related to snuff bottles making: all those books are of scarce interest in my opinion for what concern snuff bottles. The Chinese ceramic field is incredibly vast and it is completely useless to know, for example, the many types of ceramics of the Song period to whom is interested in snuff bottles. The basic notions on how porcelain is made, glazed and so on can be seen and understood through a lot of Youtube movies. Snuff bottles are Qing and later porcelain ware, with the only few variation of soft or hard paste, under glaze cobalt blue and/or copper red, over glaze polychrome enamels. What is interesting to know for snuff bottles lovers is the ability to distinguish the different painting styles within the Qing dynasty, and variation of enamels. This is mainly acquired by seeing many right dated examples, better if directly handled at auction houses etc.
Dear David, search on Youtube some movie showing how a porcelain piece is thrown out on the wheel, and you will see that all the complication of joining coils etc. is a non sense. That is a technique used before the invention of the potter wheel.
The circles on the base of the snuff bottles in question are undoubtedly carved.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on November 18, 2014, 03:44:18 am
Dear George,
“Chinese glazes” by Nigel Wood is considered the Bible of the books on Chinese glazes. i


Good to hear... Then I made a good choice purchasing it... !


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: David on November 18, 2014, 02:02:55 pm
Hi Giovanni,

That is a lot of books! No wonder you know so much on this area.

Will you ever consider to write one on porcelain snuff bottle? It will be nice if a hobby can also be a scholarly pursuit for some people. And if there are no book in this area, then perhaps you can be like Raymond Li when he wrote the book on Snuff Bottle Rebuses. (Toss mud brick, entice the jade... just a humble way for an expert to start something, without taking credit)

 :D My to read list is getting longer and longer! Not going to commit yet, but I might look at the videos after I finish reading.

If we assume it is carved... how do they carve the inside of the bottle to make it look like it is thrown (assuming that is what happens)?

Warm Regards,
David


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on November 18, 2014, 04:40:23 pm
Dear David,
you wrote: "If we assume it is carved... how do they carve the inside of the bottle to make it look like it is thrown (assuming that is what happens)?"
Who wrote that? Please re-read what I wrote. I always said that the bottles are moulded or thrown out on the wheel. And I said that the circles are carved.
I think that I have been clear.
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on November 18, 2014, 08:09:13 pm
Quote
And I said that the circles are carved.


Giovanni,

I suspect it might be done with wood or metal tap & die type tool.  More of a press and twist once the bottle is centered on the die.  More of a cutting tool than carving.

Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: David on November 18, 2014, 10:47:15 pm
Hi Giovanni,

I only picked up on this topic when I saw this thread. Sorry, I guess I missed some background on this discussion and I misunderstood what you posted on the underlined part:

Quote
In the case of the dragon pillar bottles with those circular ribs, I suppose (note, SUPPOSE, not supported by facts or documentation) that the ribs are purposely made in so exaggerated way to evidence that the bottle has been thrown out on the wheel, which imply that it is an object made with much more care, a more precious one. In fact it is impossible to have those ribs on a two halves mould. My supposition is supported also by the fact that the bottles with those circular ribs has a much more fine decoration than the common ones. My two cents (or two bucks, I don’t know).


I misunderstood that part to mean that the bottles were molded and not thrown. I think I understand what you are saying now...

The bottle is thrown so the inside swirl marks. But the concentric circles of the base are carved/exaggerated (or what Charll mentioned) to make it look better.

Apologetic Regards,
David


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on November 19, 2014, 07:20:37 am
Dear David, you are welcome.  ;D
Dear Charll, by carving I mean that the grooves are carved, (or incised, I don’t know the proper word), by means of a tool being it a piece of bamboo, a steel tool or else.
I don’t think that they have been made by pressing the bottle onto a die, because it seems to me that the grooves are not cut vertically in some cases. It seems that the carving tool was kept inclined to the axis of the bottle. And besides that the ribs has the typical roughness resulting from carving, although not in all cases.
But in any case, there is also another point worth to consider. What has been made before, the whole bottle and then the circles? Or the contrary? I don’t know. Lets ponder a bit. Suppose that you take an handful of clay, and impress on it the circles with a die. Then you have to thrown out the bottle on the wheel, so you have to place the clay on it. But in doing that, you have to perfectly align the center of the molded rings with the center of the wheel. Hmmm…. almost impossible.
Then let say that the circles are made after the bottle. So you thrown out the bottle on the wheel, then you have to take it out for making the circles. If the circles are made by means of a die, you have to align perfectly the center of the die and the bottom of the bottle. Not easy. Besides that, in making the necessary pressure, you for sure will infer some deformation to the body of the bottle. I would discard this possibility.
OK, then let’s carve the circles. But here too we have a problem. We have to perfectly align the axis of the upside down turned bottle to the axis of the wheel. Hmmm…..another problem.
Conclusion: how they do that? Do we need to admit to the Forum some guy from the fake’s making industry?  ;D


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: David on November 19, 2014, 12:17:17 pm
Hi Giovanni,

A thought occurred to me as I was logging off.

If someone have a bottom that is broken or you score halfway and then snap the other half.

Then you look at the cross section, will you be able to tell conclusively if the concentric circle of the base (biscuit?) is carved or leftover?

Best Regards,
David


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on November 19, 2014, 03:30:19 pm
Dear  David,
I am not sure if I understood you or not. What do you mean by “leftover”? Are you asking  if by the cross section of the base we can say if the circles are carved or molded? If so, I think yes only in the case that the cutting tool has not been parallel to the bottle axis but very tilted. In my opinion what is more indicative is the surface of the ribs, because usually the texture of a carved area is different from a molded one.
Anyway, my previous post was just aimed to drag the attention to a detail that seems obvious at a normal approach, but indeed it is a bit more complicated. At least to me, but be aware that I am not a potter, and as often happens what seems a problem to an inexperienced it isn’t indeed at all to the insider. 
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: David on November 19, 2014, 11:15:57 pm
Hi Giovanni,

Just from our discussions on glass, and seeing your attention to detail and technique to prove the cinnabar bottle, I will take your opinion over most present day potters.

One of the reason I don't want to see the you-tube videos yet is that I want to read those chinese porcelain book first, without contaminating myself with too much modern porcelain ideas.

Yes, you understood correctly. I never thought of cutting at an angle to the bottle axis (I assume this axis is at the center and perpendicular to the base?)... why will that be better to show the "internal signature"?

I was thinking of the snap after score, because I was worried that the action of cutting will grind out all the "signatures".

Warm Regards,
David






Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on December 02, 2014, 07:41:51 pm
Dear George,
“Chinese glazes” by Nigel Wood is considered the Bible of the books on Chinese glazes. Duncan Macintosh’s book too is a nice one. I have about 100 books on Chinese ceramics, but I want to warn you all of what I meant by saying that I am not aware of books related to snuff bottles making: all those books are of scarce interest in my opinion for what concern snuff bottles. The Chinese ceramic field is incredibly vast and it is completely useless to know, for example, the many types of ceramics of the Song period to whom is interested in snuff bottles. The basic notions on how porcelain is made, glazed and so on can be seen and understood through a lot of Youtube movies. Snuff bottles are Qing and later porcelain ware, with the only few variation of soft or hard paste, under glaze cobalt blue and/or copper red, over glaze polychrome enamels. What is interesting to know for snuff bottles lovers is the ability to distinguish the different painting styles within the Qing dynasty, and variation of enamels. This is mainly acquired by seeing many right dated examples, better if directly handled at auction houses etc.
Dear David, search on Youtube some movie showing how a porcelain piece is thrown out on the wheel, and you will see that all the complication of joining coils etc. is a non sense. That is a technique used before the invention of the potter wheel.
The circles on the base of the snuff bottles in question are undoubtedly carved.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Some how I ended up with two copies of this "Chinese Glazes"..

If anyone would like a copy, I can mail it within the US for a total of 25.00 to someone via media mail..


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on December 02, 2014, 07:43:34 pm
George

I will take it... let me know how much to send you. Thanks!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on December 05, 2014, 06:36:40 am
Hi All

My Dragon Pillar bottle finally arrived!

Here are the photos for your viewing pleasure. I am using a new camera and some of the shots do not do justice to the bottle. Anyway, I will be redoing the photographs again after I find a suitable top for it. Any suggestion?

The bottle is almost in perfect condition with a few minor firing flaws on the base.

For some unknown reasons, the photo appeared in the wrong orientation after attaching to the post. The image preview shows the correct upright position.

Enjoy!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on December 05, 2014, 09:21:28 am
Beautiful. ... congrats Richard!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: joearp on December 05, 2014, 11:46:02 am
Lovely Richard!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on December 05, 2014, 08:30:59 pm
Outstanding bottle Richard ! 

Congratulations !


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Steven on December 05, 2014, 09:36:36 pm
Congratulations Richard,

Trying to fix the orientation of your photos.


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on December 05, 2014, 09:40:58 pm
Thank you guys!

And thanks to Steven for fixing the orientation.

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on December 06, 2014, 06:00:52 am
A great looking bottle Richard. Congratulations!

Steven,
    If you swap image numbers 20 and 21 the order follows the rotation of the bottle in better order.

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on December 06, 2014, 11:18:13 am
Hi Tom

It's my fault.

I have named the file sequence incorrectly. Steven just help me to fix the image orientation.

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Steven on December 06, 2014, 10:24:43 pm
Just fixed the order as well. ;D


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on December 07, 2014, 07:15:35 am
Hi Richard and Steven,

Looks perfect now....!   ;)

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: OIB on December 08, 2014, 04:08:46 am
Richard,

Really nice b&w bottle !

Inn Bok


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on December 08, 2014, 05:56:31 am
Dear Richard,
    A gorgeous bottle. Congratulations.
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on May 16, 2015, 12:05:21 pm
All,

I had promised to post this bottle shortly after I received it in February as part of a three bottle purchase.  It took a little longer than expected to get the bottle cataloged with updated pictures.  This is the bottle that is very similar to Richard’s recent acquisition posted earlier in this thread.

A continuation for those who enjoy this type of bottle, Charll

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd517%2Frpfstoneman%2Fdownload_zpshr7grxmd.png&hash=05b3b98879b8175c57be71deb75d3581) (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/rpfstoneman/media/download_zpshr7grxmd.png.html) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd517%2Frpfstoneman%2F100_2184%25203_zps5te8svmb.jpg&hash=6e1e836e170257e9b31730409fa887b5) (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/rpfstoneman/media/100_2184%203_zps5te8svmb.jpg.html)

Blue and White Porcelain Dragon Pillar Bottle:
A soft paste porcelain blue and white dragon pillar snuff bottle, of cylindrical shape, with a very short flared neck. Well painted dragon in good tones of underglaze blue with a five clawed scaly dragon chasing a pearl amid flames motif.  A stylized ruyi-head band raps the neck of the bottle.  The bottle throat and base are encircle with a faint finely painted double blue ring.  Bottle has an unglazed counter sunken concentric twelve ring base.  Height is 7.9 cm without stopper by 2.7 cm in diameter. 

Period: Imperial kilns, Jingdezhen, c. 1800-1860.

Provenance: Out of a Private Collection in Omaha Nebraska.  Acquired from a shop at the Plaza Hotel, New York City, ca. 1975.   


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on May 16, 2015, 12:12:51 pm
I look forward very much to seeing your pillar bottles Charll.. !

This is a beauty.. Look at those scales ! Nice deep concentric rings..

Congratulations on another wonderful addition !


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Steven on May 16, 2015, 04:18:27 pm
Very impressive bottle!

Congratulations again Charll!

Steven


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on May 16, 2015, 05:33:05 pm
Dear Charll,
    A real stunner!! Congratulations!
Best,
joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: YT on May 16, 2015, 11:03:54 pm
Dear Charll,

Anyone can appreciate this kind of quality.
Congrats on a good buy.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on May 17, 2015, 02:25:05 am
Another beauty in this genre Charll.

The ruyi-head band at the neck, and the double blue ring punctuation at each end of the cylindrical body are nice touches.

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on May 17, 2015, 04:19:13 am
Very high quality dear Charll, congratulations!
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: AntPeople on May 17, 2015, 07:45:24 pm
Very nice..... !!!!

Thanks for sharing

Pin


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on May 18, 2015, 12:49:13 am
Here is the 'real stunner' in my opinion!  A recent acquisition from Erick Schiess of Jadestone in Portland Oregon.  Likely made a little later than the last bottle.

Another more simplified version for those who enjoy dragon pillar bottles, Charll

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd517%2Frpfstoneman%2FDragon%2520Bottles%2FDragon%2520Pillar%2520Bottles%2F100_2175%25202a_zps50399hj6.jpg&hash=3733597a1769a246cd920f6782596cb9) (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/rpfstoneman/media/Dragon%20Bottles/Dragon%20Pillar%20Bottles/100_2175%202a_zps50399hj6.jpg.html) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd517%2Frpfstoneman%2FDragon%2520Bottles%2FDragon%2520Pillar%2520Bottles%2F100_2177%25202a_zpsahrsjmov.jpg&hash=406aec898321fd774ba081c4055c9483) (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/rpfstoneman/media/Dragon%20Bottles/Dragon%20Pillar%20Bottles/100_2177%202a_zpsahrsjmov.jpg.html)

Blue and White Porcelain Dragon Pillar Bottle:
A hard paste porcelain blue and white dragon pillar snuff bottle, of cylindrical form, with a broad flared neck.  Well painted five clawed, camel nosed, scaly dragon chasing a simplified flaming pearl.  Wonderful use of light and dark blue tones that provides contrasting characterization to the dragon image.  Unadorned neck and base that facilitates focal attention to the dragon design solely.  Bottle has a flat unglazed twelve ring concentric base.  Height is 8.7 cm without stopper by 2.8 cm in diameter. 

Bottle came with a dome shape coral stopper attached to a thin black nylon collar with an ivory spoon. 

Period: Imperial kilns, Jingdezhen, c. 1820-1860.

Condition: Old repair to a chip on the bottle mouth and minor abrading on the bottle surface.

Provenance: Dewane Maurer collection where he acquired the bottle at a Los Angeles auction in 1990.


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on May 18, 2015, 01:36:17 am
Dear Charll,
simply "The best"!
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on May 18, 2015, 01:43:09 am
Very nice one indeed Charll.  Congrats!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: AntPeople on May 18, 2015, 01:49:08 am
Another magnificent dragon !!!

Very nice and thanks for sharing....

Pin


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on May 18, 2015, 03:00:28 am
Exquisite bottle, Charll.

Would I be right in thinking that most of this type of bottle are soft paste rather than hard paste?

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: OIB on May 18, 2015, 03:24:07 am
Charll,

Thanks for sharing the bottle. Beautiful indeed.

Inn Bok


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on May 18, 2015, 09:08:47 am
Quote
Would I be right in thinking that most of this type of bottle are soft paste rather than hard paste?

Tom,

These concentric ring bottles seems to have balanced mix in production of both soft and hard paste forms from what I've observed.   A few years ago I would have said most were hard paste, but recent observations indicate there are a lot of soft paste bottles in circulation. 

Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on May 18, 2015, 12:19:53 pm
Dear Charll,
it would be very interesting to know why soft paste is so common in the snuff bottles field and so rarely seen on bigger porcelain ware. There must be a reason for that.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on May 18, 2015, 04:53:53 pm
Dear Giovanni,

     Dr. Stephen Little suggested to me that the reason snuff bottles and other small objects were often done in soft paste, was because it was easier for scholars to find small scale artisans to make the pieces in soft paste, and to have more of an input. I've seen small covered boxes, water droppers, and many other small wares in soft paste.

     It did not need kilns as hot as those producing hard paste wares, and could be produced in Beijing, etc., rather than just in Jingdezhen.
     Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on January 14, 2021, 10:50:43 pm
All,
This dragon pillar snuff bottle was recently offered on eBay, which to me is a remarkably high quality bottle that I would place in a top tier of this group.  A highly detailed, crisp, dragon design that employs use of multiple cobalt blue tonal density that yields high contrast in the painted image against the pure white glazed of the bottle. 

When I saw it, it had a notable familiarity to me.  As it turns out it is a striking match to a bottle in my collection at the bottom of the previous page on this thread.  In comparison of the two bottles, the only divergence in design is in the orientation of the dragon’s manes.  All other design aspects are remarkable similar in style, form, orientation, and placement as if one bottle is a copy of the other, which leads me to believe that the bottles were painted by the same artist.  Maybe part of an Imperial set.

Each bottle is the same height and same diameter, with the only other difference being is that one bottle has 11 concentric rings while the other has 12 rings.   

As stated by Hugh Moss, “apart from being one of the most imposing of all groups of underglaze-decorated bottles, they are also quite obviously imperial (five-clawed dragons are standard in the group).   They remain, as a group, one of the most striking of imperial blue-and-white porcelain snuff bottles, and as an imperial group despite a usual lack of reign-marks, obviously still rank as important.”
If studying comparative bottles is “your thing” take a look at these two bottles.  Once I did, I came to appreciate them even more as a group, and the “wonders it would be like to view them together as an Imperial set of multiple bottles”.

Previous page link: https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1861.msg35425.html#msg35425

Blue and White Porcelain Dragon Pillar Bottle:
A hard paste porcelain blue and white dragon pillar snuff bottle, of cylindrical form, with a broad flared neck.  Well painted five clawed, camel nosed, scaly dragon chasing a simplified flaming pearl.  Wonderful use of light and dark blue tones that provides contrasting characterization to the dragon image.  Unadorned neck and base that facilitates focal attention to the dragon design solely.  Bottle has a flat unglazed eleven concentric ring base.  Coil ring construction with glazed interior.  Came with a bronze mounted orange-pink coral bead stopper and a stained orange ivory spoon that fits the bottle very nicely.  Height is 3.375 inches (8.7 cm) without stopper by 1.125 (2.8 cm) in diameter. 

Period: Imperial kilns, Jingdezhen, ca. 1820-1860.

Condition: Exceptionally fine estate-fresh condition with no chips, cracks, or repairs.  UV light reveals no hidden damage. 

Provenance: Bottle came from a Canadian estate of Dr Leslie Gifford Kilborn.  Leslie Gifford Kilborn: (1895–1972) son of Omar & Retta Kilborn born in Sichuan, China.  Omar & Retta are considered some of the first and most important Missionary Doctors with the family residing in China for several decades from the year 1891-1960.  The school and hospital the Kilborn family first created is still in operation today.  The Kilborn’s greatly advanced the teaching of western medicine in China.  Leslie was also the author of multiple texts, translator of many textbooks, and served as director of the College of Medicine of West China Union University and dean of the Faculty of the College of Medicine between 1925-1952.  Kilborn also taught at the University of Hong Kong between 1952-60.

Leslie Kilborn and family returned to North America in the earlier 1960s bringing a vast amount of family estate heirlooms collected by the family in China between the years 1880-1960, many of which were gifts from high officials and dignitaries.

Hope you enjoy the comparative analysis as I did,  Charll




Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on January 15, 2021, 12:44:05 am
Charll,

An intriguing 'match'. I didn't quite understand if the descriptive text is for your previously posted bottle or for the eBay one, which I assume from your wording that you did not acquire. Excuse me if I misunderstood.

There was once an article in JICSBS by HM devoted to this type of bottle. I was sure one of them was identical to a bottle I had purchased from him a few years before the article was published. I had to go over the illustrations with a magnifying glass to ascertain that none of them were actually mine. Many are remarkably similar.

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on January 15, 2021, 11:12:56 am

Tom,

The descriptions are different and respective to each bottle.  The previous posted bottle that is in my collection was purchase from a dealer in 2015.  The latter bottle was recently posted on eBay by a Canadian dealer that handles a number of estate sales annually (i.e., same dealer and estate source as the confronting dragons jade bottle I posted recently). 

I was the under bidder on the bottle above  :-\, but put time in on researching the bottle prior to my bid attempt.  Fortunately,  :D the above bottle came my way as a "second chance" offer by the seller.  I'm just now documenting the comparison process as a reference for both bottles that are now in my collection.

Charll   


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on January 16, 2021, 10:05:37 am

Fortunately,  :D the above bottle came my way as a "second chance" offer by the seller.  I'm just now documenting the comparison process as a reference for both bottles that are now in my collection.
  

Congrats on the acquisition...!

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on January 16, 2021, 04:15:26 pm
Congratulations Charll !

The detailing is really amazing !



Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: YT on January 16, 2021, 08:37:48 pm

Tom,

The descriptions are different and respective to each bottle.  The previous posted bottle that is in my collection was purchase from a dealer in 2015.  The latter bottle was recently posted on eBay by a Canadian dealer that handles a number of estate sales annually (i.e., same dealer and estate source as the confronting dragons jade bottle I posted recently). 

I was the under bidder on the bottle above  :-\, but put time in on researching the bottle prior to my bid attempt.  Fortunately,  :D the above bottle came my way as a "second chance" offer by the seller.  I'm just now documenting the comparison process as a reference for both bottles that are now in my collection.

Charll   

Dear Charll,

That seems like a hard earned and well deserved find. It will be a waste if you didn't get the bottle with the amount of research you did.
Wow! Congrats.

As for the top bidder, he sounds like a shill bidder?

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on February 12, 2021, 04:49:28 pm
Dear Charll,

     The bottle looks superb.
But is there any wear to the glazed surface?
It looked pristine to me.
Best,
GUNG HEE FAT CHOY  {Cantonese Pronunciation} / GONG XI FA CAI {Mandarin}
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on February 12, 2021, 06:10:07 pm
Joey,

They must call it hard paste for a reason!   ;)   Under a loop there are massive amounts of fine abrasions that are not easily seen by the naked eye, but give the bottle a silky mat finish appearance.  It is that way on both bottles. 

Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: snuffmke on February 12, 2021, 08:21:13 pm
Gorgeous bottle Charll. So much detail.

Brian


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on February 12, 2021, 11:51:33 pm

The Anatomy of a Dragon

Here are side by side pics of the bottles mentioned in the recent post.  I’m still convinced that they were done by the same hand. 

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd517/rpfstoneman/100_2984.JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rpfstoneman/a/d273e50a-7194-49e4-a90e-09935555726b/p/b9d12195-63d6-4ea1-87f0-8e3894822aac)   (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd517/rpfstoneman/100_2983.JPG?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rpfstoneman/a/d273e50a-7194-49e4-a90e-09935555726b/p/d38d0b1e-2583-4be5-8946-0455cc75fdb6)

Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on February 13, 2021, 01:13:25 am

Here are side by side pics of the bottles mentioned in the recent post.  I’m still convinced that they were done by the same hand. 



Charll,

You may very well be right. The detailed brush strokes look almost identical.

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on February 13, 2021, 03:27:07 pm
Dear Charll,

    Thanks. Then I've no problem it being the age suggested.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on March 06, 2021, 01:55:31 am
Hi Charll

Nice find!

I think that they are from the same workshop than from a single person. As most porcelains require several processes to complete, it is not unusual to have them divided accordingly. For example, there will be artisans creating the base shape, followed by the artist who draws and paints the design. Lastly, they will be passed to the person at the kilns for firing.

In short, they are products of a joint effort, unlikely from a single person. Even the drawing process sometimes can be broken down to several segments. For example, in a flowers and bird design piece, the flowers may be painted by one artist, another may paint the bird and another may finish up the side decorations at the neck, base, etc.

It may be fun if we and any other members can showcase and compare their pillar dragon bottles during our upcoming virtual meeting on 12 March!

See you!



Richard



Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on March 06, 2021, 03:25:14 pm

Richard,

Thanks for your comments and additions to the discussion.  Yes, as described by you that is my understanding as well.  It is often a communal effort in the production process.  When I said by the same hand, I was only referring to the painting of the dragon design.  The similarities in each detail of the dragons on each bottle is like one's handwriting or my signature.  It seems just too close to be have been done by different persons unless there is a deliberate attempt to be copied, which of course can be done as well.  My hope (or suspicion) is the these two bottles are part of a set that were made for some occasion or purpose. 

Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on March 06, 2021, 08:03:23 pm
Hi Charll

Thanks for your reply.

I think even the painting may not be by the same hand as well. These pieces are usually produced in batches and hence the workshop has standard template for the artist (or worker) to copy and follow. They will have to adhere to the product guidelines set by the workshop. If it deviated too far from the standard design, it will be rejected and hence the similarity of each piece.

Just my observation.



Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on July 19, 2021, 11:58:15 am
Charll and Richard, I think the painting of the dragon's head is quite distinctive. It could indicate a certain kiln or artist....John O'Hara


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on July 19, 2021, 09:16:02 pm
Hi John

Welcome to the forum!



Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on July 20, 2021, 07:10:46 am
Good to see you here John.

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on July 20, 2021, 07:15:11 am
Welcome aboard John  :)


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: joearp on July 20, 2021, 08:43:21 am
It is indeed a beautiful and distinctive bottle.  Agree with your comments John and so happy to see you here.  We will all benefit from the knowledge you share. Hope you will post some of your very special snuff bottles.  Welcome!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on July 20, 2021, 12:53:54 pm
Thanks to everyone for all your best wishes. An interesting pair I put together. One with concentric rings and one with a Yung cheng mark. Probably by the same hand. Is it possible that the concentric ring bottle was sent to the court and the other for general sale?


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on July 21, 2021, 04:12:19 pm
Dear John,

     Welcome Aboard!
While I'm a loyal member of the ICSBS, this Forum is much better, more user-friendly, and easier, than the one I've been accessing.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on July 21, 2021, 04:14:24 pm
Dear John,

     2 very nice soft-paste B & W SBs.
Best,

Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on July 22, 2021, 11:51:14 am
Joey, thanks for the kind words. The ICSBS forum has really been messed up lately....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: YT on July 24, 2021, 03:06:17 am
Dear John,

Welcome to the much more user friendly forum. I am from Singapore and a member of ICSBS too.

Would you like to share more photos of your soft paste Blue and White especially the base?
And some descriptions?

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on August 06, 2021, 03:29:11 pm
YT, sorry for the delay. I had to get them from the safe deposit box....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on August 06, 2021, 04:11:44 pm
How interesting, really how interesting.
Thank very much dear John.
Two identical bottles with different base! I continue (probably wrongly) be biased by the Chinese ceramics field. This would be almost impossible in that field.
In my biased opinion, it is a further proof of how few is known in snuff bottles field.
Kind regards,
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: YT on August 06, 2021, 05:41:18 pm
Thank you John. Didn't know you had to go through such trouble  :P
Considering the amount of bottles you have, I will be at a loss in similar circumstances.

Seeing is believing, these two bottles looks to be produced for different markets as you have said.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on August 07, 2021, 02:35:50 am
Dear all,
I think that I have been too quick with my comment. Considering further, the bottles are far from being identical. The shape is completely different, and the shape is one of the major factors for determining the age.
The hand of the painter too is not the same, it seems that the bottle on the left is more finely drawn. The clouds have different shape.
What is giving the impression that the bottles are of the same hand or factory is the layout of the scene, but that is actually the standard layout of all these bottles.
To show that, I am posting the picture of three completely different bottles: different shape, different color, different hand, but same subject.
We can see that the layout is always the same, being the head of the swimming dragon under the tail of the flying one, the flaming pearl among them, the left back leg of the flying dragon on the left, the left front leg and beard of the flying dragon on the right side.
Dear John, you said that “Is it possible that the concentric ring bottle was sent to the court and the other for general sale?”. This imply that bottles with concentric rings on the base were intended for the Court? Is that true? I have never heard that.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on August 07, 2021, 07:19:45 am
Giovanni, thanks for your input and pictures of your bottles. You can easily see the differences in the dragons heads, obviously by different painters. On mine the heads are very similiar, including the bottom whisker almost an afterthought....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on August 08, 2021, 06:58:27 am
Dear John,
I know the examples above are very different, I put them together just for showing the similarity of the pattern. Can you show the other side of your bottles?
I am interested in knowing your opinion about the question that I posed, if the bottles with concentric rings are intended as bottles made for the Court.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: joearp on August 08, 2021, 03:00:28 pm
I am also a fan of the Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles.  I do not know what the concentric rings mean. Marion Bozzo, a fellow collector, and I both have Pillar Bottles with concentric rings on the base with a bright blue dot in the center. Marion and I have discussed that ours could have been made in the same workshop.  It would be awesome if we could document if they were made for court or by a particular workshop.  John and Joey have seen our bottles in the past.

I enjoyed seeing John and Giovanni's bottles. 


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on August 08, 2021, 04:15:56 pm
Would like to share some interesting research by Charll in regards to concentric rings..

https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2451.msg31293.html#msg31293


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on August 09, 2021, 06:56:25 am
Giovanni and Jo, I believe that Robert Kleiner put forth that theory during a seminar on B&W bottles in Virginia in 2000. I have the other side of the bottles in the earlier photo....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on August 09, 2021, 07:44:59 am
Thank you dear John. I never heard that before.
I am not in conditions to say if all the bottles with concentric rings that I have seen are of the highest quality. Probably not, but I am not sure.
Regards,
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on August 13, 2021, 12:35:24 pm
This example is a little more unusual because of it's thin diameter, 81mmx26mm.


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on September 25, 2021, 10:00:43 pm
All, cataloging another recent acquisition.  An iron red pillar bottle.  (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd517/rpfstoneman/100_3204_(2).JPG?width=180&height=180&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rpfstoneman/p/f8d3a0ce-3742-41f7-ba78-c9f413ff9e8b)

Iron Red Porcelain Dragon Pillar Bottle:
A cylindrical hard paste porcelain bottle with a straight neck.  Bottle depicts a continuous design of an iron red five clawed imperial dragon chasing a gold gilt flaming pearl through formalized clouds above a uniformed band of waves and sea spray.  Dragon teeth and claws are high-lighted with white enamel.  Dragon body scaling is presented as a centered dot at each vertex of a uniform cross-hatching pattern, which is a typical design employed in the 2nd half of the 19th century.  Bottle has a flat unglazed white porcelain base of nine concentric rings.  Stopper is a carnelian colored half glass bead set in a brass collar with a short brown keratin spoon.  Height is 8.2 cm without stopper by 3.0 cm in diameter. 

Period: Jingdezhen, ca. 1851-1855/1866-1874.  (Likely Tongzhi period 1862-1874).

Condition: Exceptionally fine fresh condition with no chips, cracks, or repairs, and little to no abrasion.  UV light reveals no hidden damage. 

Provenance:  Powley Oriental Arts.  Acquired from a dealer in Spain who told Mark Powley he purchased the bottle from a German collector who
                      had a written collection index card.  Card states bottle was purchased at the Dusseldorf Fair April 1975 for 400.00 Deutsche
                      Marks (roughly $163.00 USD in 1975).

Similar Reference:  Similar to bottle 21.3.1046 in the ‘The Water Pine and Stone Collection of Snuff Bottles

Enjoy, Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on September 25, 2021, 11:41:24 pm
Congratulations Charll,

This is an impressive bottle - wonderful control of brushwork and firing. Quite unusual to see the flaming pearl picked out in gold gilt.

Its size and proportions conform closely to the underglaze blue dragon pillar bottles, except perhaps for the neck.
The comparison to the example in the 'e-yazi' link is interesting, in that the latter is significantly shorter than the average dragon pillar bottle.

Thanks for sharing!

Tom 


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on September 26, 2021, 06:19:03 am
Hi Charll

Another nice bottle!

I wonder how many 'pillars' there are now in your home?  ;D ;D

The last counter was 38 porcelain bottles you have posted including this one.

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on September 26, 2021, 07:03:22 am
Charll, congrats on your purchase! I believe I showed you the matching one at one of the conventions....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on September 26, 2021, 10:18:20 am

John, as I recall yes you did.  Its a lovely bottle as well.  Thanks for your comments and sharing of your bottles. 

Also, do not be reluctant to give me some constructive criticism on my descriptions and write ups.  You have a very high working knowledge.  For me it is more important to get these right, and I look up to the group here to provide feedback when I'm off base or have gone astray.

Charll     


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on September 26, 2021, 07:35:36 pm
Congratulations on another absolutely wonderful bottle Charll !

 


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on September 27, 2021, 01:50:21 am
Very nice bottle dear Charll.
Surely Tongzhi/Guangxu period, very typical.
Congratulations.
Kind regards,
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on September 27, 2021, 10:13:10 am

John, upon further inspection of the dragon features it obvious both your bottle and mine are painted using the same and/or standardized template.  Charll     


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on September 27, 2021, 11:30:43 am
Charll, that is my feeling also....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: snuffmke on September 27, 2021, 09:38:21 pm
Charll,

Wow, now that's a great one. Love the details in the dragon.

Brian


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on September 30, 2021, 01:31:48 pm
It looks like a well done overglaze Iron red decorated porcelain SB.
With the quality of the scales etc., I could see it being as early as Daoguang [1821-1850]
or Xianfeng [1851-1854/1855 {When Jingdezhen was destroyed by the Taiping}],
though it could be as late as Tongzhi between 1865 {after he rebuilt Jingdezhen in 1865} and 1874.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on September 30, 2021, 01:42:10 pm
Dear John,

     When the late Robert Kleiner described the differences between dragon heads, he indeed spoke in 2000 at the DC convention; but I remembered that it was to explain that the style of drawing / incising dragon heads was different between early, mid-,  and later Qing; and he was referencing the fake Shunzhi bronze SBs, which were most probably ca.1870-1890 and made for the Western market.
Best,
Joey



Giovanni and Jo, I believe that Robert Kleiner put forth that theory during a seminar on B&W bottles in Virginia in 2000. I have the other side of the bottles in the earlier photo....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on October 01, 2021, 07:13:21 am
Joey, thanks for the clarification....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on October 03, 2021, 01:48:29 am
Dear John,

    My pleasure.
I paid particular attention, because I'd been offended when Hugh Moss publicly
mocked Prof. Schuyler Cammann, over the latter's denial that the Shunqi bronzes
were genuinely 17th C.
Prof. Cammann had argued that they were ca. 1870 - 1900, and made for
the Western market, when he gave us a lecture at the Newark Museum during
the 1982 NYC  ICSBS convention, which was held at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in NYC.
Subsequently, Hugh Moss quietly acknowledged that they were actually mid to late 19th C.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on May 08, 2022, 10:35:38 pm
All, this bottle is another recent acquisition.  It is a little larger in height at 10.3 cm over that you normal see (7.5 to 9.0 cm) in these dragon pillar bottles.

Blue & White Porcelain Dragon Pillar Bottle:
A large cylindrical hard paste porcelain bottle with a low stubbed neck and broad flared mouth.  Bottle depicts a continuous wrap design of a five clawed cobalt blue dragon chasing a flaming pearl on a pure white paste ground.   The dragon’s head is coiled back over the main body from left to right.  Good use of tonal contrast of dark blue on the pearl flames and back ribbing, feet, and beaded facial features of the dragon to mid blue tonal hues on the main body, and a lite blue wash to fill other areas in the design.  Dragon scales are presented as a central dot at each vertex on a uniform cross-hatching pattern, which is a typical design employed in the 2nd half of the 19th century.  Glazed bottle interior.  Bottle has a flat unglazed white porcelain base of eleven concentric rings.  Stopper is a larger banded agate tunic button carved as a traditional coiled chi long dragon set on a thin nylon collar with a brown stained bone spoon.  Height is 10.3 cm without stopper by 3.7 cm in diameter.  Bottle came with fitted rosewood stand.

Period: ca. 2nd half 19th century.

Condition: good condition with no chips, cracks, or repairs, and a little abrasion from use.  Main body has a few firing pot marks and there are several areas of scale dotting that have burned through the surface of the clear overglaze.

Provenance:     Powley Oriental Arts, San Francisco
                         Purchased from an antique dealer in Southampton, UK

If anyone has an opinion that the dating of this bottle could, or should, be placed in the early 20th century, please let me know.

Charll   


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on May 09, 2022, 04:21:46 am
Hi Charll

Another beauty!

Congratulations!


Richare


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on May 09, 2022, 07:11:41 am
Charll, another great bottle! Everything looks right to place it in the 2nd half of the 19th century....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on May 09, 2022, 11:26:05 am
A very crisp and sharp dragon painting!  Really beautiful and as always, a very detailed and educational description.

A really great job on the stopper/spoon Charll, looks very nice. I have thought about shaping the cork sloped to meet the spoon like this. Looks good.


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on May 11, 2022, 06:54:16 am
Dear Charll, now I understand because I have never been able to put my hands on a dragon pillar bottle. You are raiding all them😊!
Congratulations for another great example (and, of course, the description).
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: YT on May 11, 2022, 08:38:07 pm
Dear Charll, now I understand because I have never been able to put my hands on a dragon pillar bottle. You are raiding all them😊!
Congratulations for another great example (and, of course, the description).
Kind regards
Giovanni


Hahahaha agreed!!

Congrats Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on May 11, 2022, 10:30:48 pm
Nice one Charll, including the stopper and spoon.

Congratulations!

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on May 12, 2022, 04:58:58 am
Dear Charll,

    I'd date it ca.1865 - 1880.
A really beautiful, crisply painted example.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on May 14, 2022, 12:06:11 pm
One of my personal favorites 85mm.....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on May 14, 2022, 12:37:04 pm
Dear John,

    An interesting example.
Are the dots in each diamond caused by the cross-hatching  underglazed copper red or cobalt blue?
I'd probably date it to Daoguang reign.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on May 14, 2022, 12:58:51 pm
Joey, the dots are in cobalt. I would also say the bottle is Daoguang....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on May 14, 2022, 01:00:44 pm
Wonderful, John.
Beautiful.
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on May 14, 2022, 07:52:38 pm
Great bottle John !

The concentric rings are very deep. I have always appreciated Charll's research dating these very deep rings even prior to Daoguang, as early as 1780.

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2451.msg31296.html#msg31296


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on May 15, 2022, 12:57:13 am
Dear John,
I am impressed by your bottle, because, if my memory is not failing (getting hold and memory is not so good) it is the first time that I see on a snuff bottle a dragon with the face of Qianlong’s dragons.
All dragons on snuff bottles have the typical face of Guangxu’s dragons.
Very interesting to me. Let see if Charll is of the same opinion.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on May 15, 2022, 07:44:36 am
Thanks everyone with your kind comments. Giovanni you have a good eye. This is the earlier dragons face and the base is very concave as per Charll's dating....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on May 15, 2022, 09:28:06 am
Dear John, this is confirming the dating provided by Joey.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on May 17, 2022, 03:52:27 am
Dear John,
I am impressed by your bottle, because, if my memory is not failing (getting hold and memory is not so good) it is the first time that I see on a snuff bottle a dragon with the face of Qianlong’s dragons.
All dragons on snuff bottles have the typical face of Guangxu’s dragons.
Very interesting to me. Let see if Charll is of the same opinion.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Dear Giovanni,
Surely not "ALL dragons on snuff bottles have the typical face of Guangxu’s dragons."
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on May 17, 2022, 10:19:09 am
Dear Joey,
then, as I was suspecting (actually, I face it everyday) my memory is getting worse :(

Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on May 17, 2022, 04:25:46 pm
Dear Giovanni,

     Join the Club... ::) :o ;D
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on May 23, 2022, 08:27:34 am
Another unusual example [74mm] has the iron red and the famme verde. Slightly concave base and flared lip rim. Wear to the iron red, the pearl is almost gone....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on May 23, 2022, 09:34:29 am
That is a very rare example, John.
I'm assuming Guangxu [1874-1908].
Beautiful.
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on May 25, 2022, 08:24:34 am
Joey, I agree with that dating....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on May 25, 2022, 10:10:45 am
Dear John,
It is a really nice bottle. It is normal that the overglaze iron red is fading by handling, being it, together with gold enamel, the more delicate enamels.
In fact, at first glance by looking at your pictures I thought myself “how strange, the dragon is missing the scales!” but after looking better I see that there are faint tracks of them. I assume that the scales were painted in gold enamel, that has been totally or almost totally gone.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on May 25, 2022, 11:31:36 am
Giovanni, you are correct about the scales. The area were they are most notable is the tail of the dragon....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on May 31, 2022, 01:09:23 pm
This piller[82mm] is not from the standard group. Thin body and a slightly indented smooth foot.


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on May 31, 2022, 04:18:21 pm

John,

Well this is interesting one!  Yes, a pillar dragon design bottle but no concentric rings.   Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: George on May 31, 2022, 05:48:44 pm
Wonderful bottle John !


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on May 31, 2022, 11:49:00 pm
An interesting bottle, John.

The main differences are the slenderness and the lack of base rings.
The cylindrical form, splayed neck / mouth, and the dragon composition all conform.

Thanks for sharing.

Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: YT on June 01, 2022, 02:54:43 am

John,

Well this is interesting one!  Yes, a pillar dragon design bottle but no concentric rings.   Charll
Dear Charll,

I can see the concentric rings as pointed out in the photo or what's left of it.
It's just been grinded down.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on June 01, 2022, 05:33:16 am
Dear YT, all,
I would exclude that the base has been grinded, because it seems, although the picture is not clear, that the burnt surface of the unglazed base is there. If grinded, it should be whiter and matt, lacking those burnt spots with bright skin.
But a better picture or John’s opinion, having him the bottle in hand, will tell more surely.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on June 01, 2022, 01:03:33 pm
I want to thank everyone for their comments. I finally got a better picture. There is a small loop in the center followed by 2 rings. The rings seem to disappear after that. I do not think it has been sanded. Could it have been attached to the wheel and then cleaned up?


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: YT on June 01, 2022, 06:28:56 pm
Dear John,

This looks like the spiral ring that Charll mentioned before here..... https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,4366.msg59134.html#msg59134

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on June 02, 2022, 12:20:38 am
Although at the center the starting point looks like that of a spiral, all the rest are circles and not spiral, as shown in the attached picture.
It has been worked out on the wheel, no doubt.
But the base has all the features of a normal “skin” of unglazed paste. I am sure that, if John would look at the surface under incident light, he should see some reflection of light, some brightness. Instead, if filed, the paste is uniformly matte white, and lacking that roughness that we see here.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on June 02, 2022, 12:43:47 pm
Giovanni, with the UV light I see only some old glue possibly from a label. The rest of the surface appears even and untouched....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on June 04, 2022, 01:07:42 pm
Another variation of the piller bottle[79mm]. A dragon with it's feet on clouds. Years ago Robert Kleiner had a watercolor painting of a matching dragon bottle. From the collection of the Blue Dragon Lady.


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on June 04, 2022, 10:37:48 pm

John,

Nice bottle. Looks to be an apocryphal Xuande (1426-1435) mark on a 19th century bottle?  Correct.  Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: YT on June 05, 2022, 12:57:29 am
XuanDe Emperor, just 10 years of rulership and died at the age of 36.
1425-1435!

Early Ming antiques are rare and pricey.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on June 05, 2022, 07:12:34 am
Charll and YT, I think I have a couple of underglaze bottles with this mark. I wonder why they chose this particular emperor?....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on June 05, 2022, 10:31:06 am

John,

As I recall from past readings the use of the Xuande mark was a tribute in honor of the high quality B&W porcelains that were produced during that period.  Hoping others here can confirm what I recall. 

Charll



Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on June 08, 2022, 08:19:13 am
Another variation on the piller theme [84mm]. This time a 4-clawed dragon with the red used as high-lights. The dots, pearl, flames around the pearl, the beard and claws all high-lighted in copper red. Very fine smooth porcelain.


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on June 08, 2022, 02:08:43 pm
Dear John,
very nice. I believe that the underglaze copper red has been purposely misfired in order to obtain a green tinge, which is more appropriate for a dragon.
Thank you for sharing.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on June 08, 2022, 08:52:52 pm
Hi John

Another nice bottle with an interesting mark.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on June 08, 2022, 11:37:32 pm
Hi John

Here is a brief history of the hall mark, Jixi Tang Zhi on the base.

According to one source, this hall mark Jixi Tang was actually an ancestral hall (祠堂) built by the eleven sons of Liang Junzhang (梁君杖) during the Jiaqing period.

As he was still alive when the hall was completed, it was renamed Jixi Tang (缉熙堂).

The name Jixi means brightness or brilliance and the Liang family has produced many talents and a history of eighty-one court officials during the Qing dynasty.

Jixi Tang is in the Guangdong province and has been converted into a school before. It is now a protected cultural heritage site of the city.

For your information.

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on June 09, 2022, 01:06:15 am
Dear Richard,
I am always impressed by your knowledge.
This mark must be absolutely rare!! It is not included in the last release of Gerald Davison's book.
I have printed it with your explanation and added the page to my copy of the book.
Thank you very much.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on June 09, 2022, 01:15:50 am
Hi Richard,

Like Giovanni, I am always impressed by the extent of your knowledge in these matters!

Best,
Tom


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on June 09, 2022, 01:17:37 am
Hi Giovanni & Tom

Thank you for your kind words.

It will be a pleasure to share what I know with all of you.

This mark, although rare, has appeared in a few instances.

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on June 09, 2022, 07:24:08 am
Dear Richard,

    I agree with Giovanni and Tom L.
Thank you for all the knowledge you so willingly share.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on June 09, 2022, 07:45:23 am
Richard, again you have really impressed me! Your knowledge of calligraphy and Chinese history is the most I have ever seen....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on June 25, 2022, 12:08:40 pm
This example looks like your standard pillar bottle with concentric rings until you look at the bottom [80mm]. I have not seen many kylin painted on the bottom of bottles.


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on June 25, 2022, 03:20:19 pm
Dear John,

    {Actually a Bixi, not a Qilin.} WRONG [Joey].
A SUPERBLY painted bottle.
Wonderful!
Thank you for posting it.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on June 25, 2022, 10:30:12 pm

John,

Another beautiful bottle and a bit of a surprise with the Qilin, or Kylin, as a base image.  Is this another one of those bottles from the 'Blue Dragon Lady' Collection? 

Charll


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on June 25, 2022, 11:23:49 pm
Hi Joey

John and Charll are right, the base mark is a Qilin, not a Bixi. Bixi has a tortoise hell on it's back.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on June 26, 2022, 12:30:03 am
Oh.
Richard, I got a superb Kangxi Blue & White ginger jar with what I thought was a Bixi,
from Y.F. Yang of blessed memory. And it looked like this figure.

But I've just accessed Google, and of course you are all correct.
A Bixi is a dragon tortoise.
Thank you for the correction.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on June 26, 2022, 07:14:14 am
Everyone, I thought it was a Qilin. Charll, this is not from that collection....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on June 26, 2022, 08:10:21 am
Guys, I've seen references to "the 'Blue Dragon Lady' Collection" a few times.
What is it? Or Who is it?
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on June 26, 2022, 12:17:41 pm
Joey, the Blue Dragon Lady was a rich collector of everything dragons[mostly blue] from Wilmington, Delaware. The collection was sold at my local auction on 2-23-2009. When I walked into the auction my jaw dropped, there were thousands of dragon items. I was able to buy33 bottles....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on June 26, 2022, 12:41:35 pm
Dear John,

  33 Bottles?! Wow!
 That sounds like a once in a lifetime score!
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on June 27, 2022, 11:31:03 am
This next example looks like the standard piller bottle with concentric rings and it is. 80mm. This came from a B&W collection that I found at a small auction in 2003. There were 3 piller bottles in the group....John


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on June 27, 2022, 02:46:57 pm
Another beauty, John.
Thank you for posting it.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on June 27, 2022, 09:16:21 pm
I agreed. Another beauty indeed!


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: bambooforrest on July 10, 2022, 06:57:23 am
The last of the piller bottles from the collection I bought in 2003 [77mm].


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on July 10, 2022, 09:59:46 am
Wow, John!
Another stunning dragon pillar bottle.
Wonderful,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: richy88 on July 10, 2022, 11:07:31 am
Hi John

Another beauty indeed.

It is almost identical to the one I have, except that mine does not have any crackle.

Thanks for posting.


Richard


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Joey on July 10, 2022, 11:26:35 am
Dear Richard,

    That is because your example is in hard-paste porcelain,
and John's is in soft-paste porcelain...

   Hard-paste porcelain is produced by combining Kaolin ['China'] clay with Petuntse,
a naturally occurring calcium carbonate compound. The Chinese discovered it in the late Tang Dynasty [!].
Incidentally, it took the Europeans till the 18th C. to replicate it, by burning cow bones to recreate that calcium carbonate compound.
Only 800 years later...

Soft-paste porcelain is produced by mixing Kaolin clay with 'frit' - a glassy substance that is a mixture of white sand,
gypsum, soda, salt, alum and nitre. Lime and chalk are used to fuse the white clay and the frit.
And the mixture then fires at a lower temperature than hard-paste porcelain.

Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles
Post by: Wattana on July 14, 2022, 04:18:58 am
Another fine example - 2003 was a bonanza year for you!

Tom