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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
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A Beautiful Jade Bottle

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Author Topic: A Beautiful Jade Bottle  (Read 645 times)
George
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« on: July 01, 2012, 04:18:51 pm »

I think this one moves up to the top of my all time favorite jade bottles list !

Closed out at acution today for 2300.00 US..

Love the traditional shape... Beautifully carved !





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Pat - 查尚杰
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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2012, 06:43:32 am »

Very nice one indeed....    It is just hard to know about these hard stone bottles.   Their prices amaze me.   
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Pat
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Steven
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2012, 12:48:00 am »

Joey and Tom,

Can you guys have some comments on this one.

I was actually bidding on this one, and think the carve is wonderful, material is very good too, $2300 for this one is a bargain. I was just not ready to pay that much.

Steven

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Wattana
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2012, 06:40:44 am »

Steven,

There is only one Joey, but which Tom was that message aimed at?  Smiley

Tom (Wattana)
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Tom
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2012, 10:00:05 am »

Hi Tom,

I mean you, Tom( Wattana).... Wink
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2012, 06:04:07 am »

Steve and George,

It appears to me to be carved in the Moghul style, which was popular in the 18th century, my guess is late 18 century to first quarter of the 19th century.  Others are more qualified to assess the bottle than me. However, I agree that it is very beautiful!

Ted
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2012, 10:05:02 am »

Hi George and Steven,

Dating stone bottles is always problematic. In many cases there is simply not enough data to reach a confident conclusion. In this particular case we only have these 3 photos to go on, so I will try and make an educated guess!

The decorative style of the foliage (are they artemisia leaves?) covering the whole body, including the base, is, as Ted says, reminiscent of the Moghul style, which was popular at court in the second half of the 18th C. These bottles are typically made from flawless white nephrite jade. While the russet markings of this example are attractive, the quality of the material is not quite up to the benchmark for an Imperial snuff bottle, so it was possibly made slightly later by someone trying to emulate a court piece. Looking at shape alone, the overall form of the bottle - its flattened tapering body, flared neck, wide flat lip and relatively small mouth - could place this bottle anywhere from the late 18th C to mid 19th C, or even a little later.

I realize this leaves the window wide open! If one could check the degree of interior hollowing that would narrow the range, as would a detailed examination of the carving. For instance, it should be extremely well hollow, and the finishing of the spaces between the carved leaves ought to be absolutely smooth and even, as if the bottle was a plain one with the leaf decoration stuck on top. These features might place it in the period 1770-1850. If there are any signs of haste or lack of attention in the lapidary's work, the bottle is likely to be from the second half of the 19 C., or even a good modern copy

I welcome anyone else's views on this.

Tom
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Joey
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 07:46:25 am »

I just found this now (in a manic search for peace from guests who are driving me batty! I was not this way, when Jeren and Donna Stoneman, and Donna's mom Joanne, visited me in Israel... my cousins are soooo irritating!).
The bottle indeed looks Moghul-style, but I think it is a modern copy, NOT 18th or 19th C. 'original'. It looks too good. I've said this before (ad nauseum!); the modern painters (in Blue & White), and carvers (in porcelain, glass, and hardstone) try TOO HARD to surpass the originals, and succeed; but that gives the game away.
Steven, good thing you didn't buy.
 Incidentally, I had a couple of Moghul-style jade SBs, and used to play with a bunch belonging to friends like Allie McReynolds, Neal & Frances Hunter, Edgar Wise, Bernie & Fran Wald, Edward O'Dell, etc, who would let me fondle their treasures when I visited. It just doesn't look right...
Joey

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 05:38:16 am »

Joey,

I envy you your 'fondle' memories!  Grin

That really is the BEST way to learn how to recognize and appreciate genuine old bottles.

Tom
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Joey
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 07:37:52 am »

   I just went through my Jade bottles, all 44 (and the Jadeite snuff dish makes 45), and realised that I bought Patty Miller's Moghul Jade in Sept. 2005, after I finished the 12 months of mourning my mom of blessed memory. I'd not bought any snuff bottles or  outer clothes in the 12 months, as part of the mourning observance. I had enough outer clothes (shirts, sweaters, and trousers) to last me, and socks and underwear don't count; when the 12 months ended, I flew from Ireland, where I'd been the previous 4 weeks, to London.
   I bought myself a whole new wardrobe, mainly at Asprey's; and spent like a drunken sailor at Robert Kleiner's. He had a job lot of John Ault's B & W porcelain SBs, other SBs, and Patty Miller's whole collection. I bought about 40 or more SBs, Jades, B&Ws or IPs, and honestly don't know everything I bought. I bought, but didn't really catalogue. Thankfully, I've got all the receipts, which list everything.
  I checked, and I have one Jade I'd classify as a Ming medicine bottle, which, with a spoon added to the corked stopper, became a Qing snuff bottle.
  Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 08:55:28 pm »

Joey,

Maybe you should coin a new phrase for this last bottle category (before HM does): a MingQing bottle.  Smiley

Tom
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2012, 05:00:20 am »

As opposed to the QingMing Festival?!  Cheesy
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2016, 09:29:57 am »

Hello all,

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I need to ask a question.

I do not have the luxury of owning a jade snuff, whether new or old. Now I know jade is very hard, but surely even jade should have some wear marks on it if it is 18th or 19th century.

I understand this particular snuff was not purchased by a member, so any lack of wear on it cannot be seen. However, can any member please post some really good photos of an 18th or 19th jade snuff that they own, so we can see the wear that one should expect from a piece of jade that old.

Thank you in anticipation of your kind assistance.

Paul
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George
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2016, 10:10:56 am »

Hi Paul..

Feel free to bring up any old archived topics you wish..

Neither do I have a jade bottle.. But, I doubt any would show any wear. I think the best you will find is the natural wear of a pebble type bottle.
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paul
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2016, 12:55:36 pm »

Hello George,

Thank you for you reply.

Kind regards,

Paul
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George
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2016, 03:45:29 pm »

Hello George,

Thank you for you reply.

Kind regards,

Paul

Your welcome  Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2016, 04:40:59 pm »

Dear Paul,
in my opinion wear can not be a general rule for this type of bottles. You can either have a very light uniform wear or no wear at all, looking brand new. It all depends on the use or how it has been kept. I think that Joey can confirm this.
Giovanni
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paul
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2016, 04:48:26 am »

Hello Giovanni,

Thank you for your reply.

I understand your reply, but after two hundred years, if not wear, there must be signs of 'use'. However, you mention 'for this type of bottle', so from this do you mean that the handling of jade over all that time polishes it and that is the sign of use?

Kind regards,

Paul
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2016, 07:29:35 am »

Dear Paul,
I meant for jade bottles. I have seen 18th century jade bottles that did look like brand new.
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Giovanni
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paul
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2016, 07:58:58 am »

Hello Giovanni,

It just goes to show what an amazing stone jade is. Jade is a passion of mine, but to date I have not found a jade snuff. I will though.

This gives me some hope actually, as I have a nicely carved nephrite dog which has an old style appearance but has no wear marks, so I automatically thought it must have been 20th century. Maybe it is older than I thought.

Thank you Giovanni.

Kind regards,

Paul
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