Baluster.. Vases Versus Snuff/medicinal, and Mother Bottles

[George]

I stumbled onto the word "baluster" while looking through Joey's, "In Search Of A Dragon".



I then found myself searching the internet for baluster shaped vases.

Of course a baluster shaped vase can come in many different sizes.. Some do fall within the size that I could easily include within the porcelain  section of a snuff bottle collection. Even if their original use was not intended for snuff or medicinal herbs.

Most of you know that I do not have any porcelain examples in my collection, but hope to be able to change that down the road. But this got me to thinking..  At what baluster size example am I willing to purchase as a snuff bottle collector ? Aside from knowing what their original intent was meant for.

We see Mother snuff bottles upwards of 5".. , and some tall snuff/medicine bottles upwards of 4"

So for me, as a snuff bottle collector I believe any porcelain bottle/vase/container upwards of as much as 5" would fit nicely among my snuff bottle collection.

I found quite a few online listed as vases.. The smallest in the 3 1/2" range.

Below are a few 4 1/2" ( quality or age aside ) baluster style porcelain vases/containers that I would sure add to a future group of porcelain collectible snuff bottles..

Maybe others will comment, but for me, if and when I start in on porcelain snuff bottles, I would be a-ok with adding any nice porcelain example as long as it was within a reasonable size for snuff bottle collecting simply based on the beauty of the example.

[Steven]

Hi George,

There is a term in chinese porcelain collection" 大器小样"da qi xiao yang, which means the shape is the same as the traditional vase shape but smaller, even long before snuff bottle was introduced to the China, the craft man already make those small vases, some are just for decoration .

I would say if you like the shape and painting, it doesn't matter what were those made for.

The ones you posted are beautiful painted, but they look modern to me. since they are way to shiny, in another word in chinese , its still 热( hot), which means it just be fired not long ago:), if its antique, after years being exposed to air, those shiny should be fade out, even they are not used . but ofcoz now days those faker can make those shiny surface fade out easily.

It will take years and years learning experience to learn chinese porcelain and be able to judge and ID it, the inside paint is much easier to be ID than porcelains in my opinion.

Steven

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

George,
   I'm assuming you mean the two outside examples in that picture, not the central one. Those are a baluster shape, but I today tend to use the Chinese term 'Meiping' (I understand it to mean 'winebottle' or 'winejar'; Steven/Walter?).
   Robert Kleiner, who wrote "Dragon", prefers to use the terms he learned at Sotheby's, as did Lilla Perry, who wrote a seminal book on snuff bottles and snuff bottle collecting in 1960. That book, a copy of which was my 'bible' on collecting from 1970, when I received a copy as a bar mitzva present, has had an important effect on many new collectors, from my experience discussing influences on collecting with a vast range of collectors. In 1973, I bought a copy of Bob Stevens' book, which became my 'mishna' (we don't have a new testament!), and Robert Kleiner's first Bloch catalogue, my 'gemara'.
Shabbat Shalom, Joey

[George]

Yes, the two outside ones for baluster, but all three in regards to how tall of a porcelain piece would fit nicely among a snuff bottle collection.

Bob Stevens book was my bible for several months until you sent me the books and journals..

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

George,
   Have you seen any Chinese 'scholar's paraphernalia'? I'm referring to brush-washers, ink-stones, water droppers, wrist-rests, scroll weights, hand-warmers, brush-pots, incense burners, joss stick holders, crystal balls, lacquerware,  and there might yet be others not ennumerated or described.
  I have a small collection of these items (I had more, but I've been slowly giving my water-dropper collection comprising Chinese, Japanese (water-droppers are call suiteki in Japanese), Korean, and Annamese (southern Viet Nam before the 18th C.) examples to my 'goddaughter' Sophie (JerryL's daughter), since she was 11.
  As well, you might want to see stuff from the Hatcher Cargo, etc.
Best, Shabbat Shalom, Joey

[Steven]

   I'm assuming you mean the two outside examples in that picture, not the central one. Those are a baluster shape, but I today tend to use the Chinese term 'Meiping' (I understand it to mean 'winebottle' or 'winejar'; Steven/Walter?).

Hi Joey,

I would think those baluster vase could be called in chinese ' jiangjun jar, or gerenal jar in english, normally Jiangjun Jar have bigger opening and normally have a lid ,( the lid can be the cap of the general, and body looks more stronger than Meiping) meiping have very small opening because it was designed as wine container , small opening won't let the smell of the wine goes away..

Attached you can say the difference....

Steven

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Steven,
   Thank you for the two illustrations, but we would call both a baluster shaped snuff bottle, and I would call the top one a meiping-shaped snuff bottle, and the bottom one a meiping-shaped snuff jarlet. So I will start using the term jiangjun-shaped snuff jarlet, and leave the meiping term for examples with small mouths, which more properly resemble a true meiping.
 Thank you, A good week to all, Joey

[hlbb]

Is it only my impression that the Yue School is the only one that make snuff bottles of this shape?

[Steven]

Hi Walter,

I guess that you are right, I think yue school is the only one that make inside paints out Meiping shape.

[George]

George,
   Have you seen any Chinese 'scholar's paraphernalia'? I'm referring to brush-washers, ink-stones, water droppers, wrist-rests, scroll weights, hand-warmers, brush-pots, incense burners, joss stick holders, crystal balls, lacquerware,  and there might yet be others not ennumerated or described.

I have a set of scroll weights, and have seen brush pots, and of course incense burners, but now you have me searching for these other items.. !

[rpfstoneman]

All,

Just adding a point of clarity to Walter’s and Steven’s comments for the newer collector.  Yes, it has been my observation that the Peach River Studio or Yu School has been the only interior painting school to utilize the meiping bottle shape in glass, but this is a quite common form used in both old and newer porcelain bottles.  Also, I have seen some organic bottles, jades and other hardstone bottles produces in a meiping form.

Charll

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

George,
   I wanted to buy what was called an 18th C. Imperial Palace Workshop Ivory; now they are being downgraded to being Japanese, not Chinese, and 1850-1900, not 1750-1800, by the same dealer who originally sold them as 18th C. Imperial!
A friend suggested I buy scholar's objects instead, because they were much cheaper. I bought an 18th C. ivory wrist-rest (someone doing Chinese calligraphy with a brush, holds it at a 90o angle to the paper; one uses a wrist-rest to make it easier to hold the hand at that angle.), same period as the snuff bottles, for 3% of the cost of the bottle! And as fine carving, and source.
  It is amazing how many things are available to collect. Then I saw hand-warmers and foot-warmers. These are bronze and later, brass, bowls with fretwork covers and handles, from 3X2X2 inches (75X50X50 mm.) to 5X4X4 inches (125X100X100 mm.) for hand-warmers, to up to 8X6X6 inches (200X150X150 mm.) for foot-warmers. The covers are cut out by hand with ornate designs. I now have 9 bronze late Ming examples, and 3 brass early-mid Qing examples.
Enjoy! ;-)
Joey

[George]

   Thank you for the two illustrations, but we would call both a baluster shaped snuff bottle, and I would call the top one a meiping-shaped snuff bottle, and the bottom one a meiping-shaped snuff jarlet. So I will start using the term jiangjun-shaped snuff jarlet, and leave the meiping term for examples with small mouths, which more properly resemble a true meiping.
 

Just to add...

Was re-reading an article titled, "Interior Landscapes: The Art Of The Chinese Snuff Bottle", Spring 2011 ICSBS Journal, the author, Shawn Eichman.

"It is interesting to think about whether snuff started to be contained in "medicine jarlets" before or after it entered into China. Jarlets like these were widely exported throughout Southeast Asia. Produced in Vietnam and Thailand as well, so it seems entirely likely that as Europeans were entering into island Southeast Asia they may have encountered these jarlets there before going to China and that the practice of storing snuff in jarlets may have started in Southeast Asia rather than China."

Also, in describing the overglaze enamel ( fig 2 ) and the underglaze cobalt oxide ( fig 3 ) Shawn says that both techniques were widespread by the end of the Ming dynasty and continued to be developed through the seventeenth to the nineteenth century.

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear George,
Steven is right, those two side vases in the first picture of this thread are often called baluster too, but they are not indeed really baluster shape. As Steven said, they are missing the lid. The one in the middle is called Gu shaped vase. The real baluster form is like the ones on the sides but with an everted rim, like that of the Gu vase. And meiping form is that that has a very narrow mouth.
BTW dear George you have talked on the last days about Langyao glaze and baluster form. You are turning the knife in the wound ! I am engaged currently in a delicate negotiation to buy a rare baluster form 18th century Langyao glazed vase, something that is in the firsts places of my dream pieces since too long! Possibly I will have a definitive answer within next week.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[George]

BTW dear George you have talked on the last days about Langyao glaze and baluster form. You are turning the knife in the wound ! I am engaged currently in a delicate negotiation to buy a rare baluster form 18th century Langyao glazed vase, something that is in the firsts places of my dream pieces since too long! Possibly I will have a definitive answer within next week.

Sounds like a very special piece !  Good luck ! 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Giovanni,
     I hope you get the piece you are after. It is always wonderful to fulfill a dream, so another dream can take its place.
Joey

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Thank you both dear George and Joey.
Dear Joey, I am sure you will like to visit Bobbio, the locality in the link provided above.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Giovanni,

    Yes, if only to see where the secret council to take over the world for the Roman Catholic Church is based! 

   I'm just joking, but this old Protestant lady, Mrs. Elizabeth Craig, in my village of Bunclody, in Ireland (where the area's population is 80% Catholic; 20% Protestant, mainly Anglican; and 2 Jews,  and we two are 40% of the whole Jewish community in Wexford! 50% if you don't count Glenn Silver, who converted to RC when he married a local Catholic lady in New Ross...), warned me that The Knights of St. Columbanus were plotting to take over the world. That was in 1990.

    I thought she was joking, and said,"No, I'm sorry, Mrs. Craig. You have your secret councils mixed up. It's we Jews who are plotting to take over the world!"

   She replied in all seriousness,"No, I USED to think that the Jews were trying to take over the world, but now I KNOW it's the Catholics." She died a few years ago, at 97. Weird old woman.

   So I'll be very happy to visit Bobbio. 
Joey
 
   

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

You are very welcome dear Joey, and I will learn so much from you also in that matter. I realize now that I said "the link provided above" while indeed it was posted in the St. Patrick's bottle thread. Getting old!
Giovanni

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Giovanni,
    No doubt like you yourself, I go through all new postings each day. So it didn't make much of a difference, whether it was here or there.

   Best, and Happy Easter!

   Our Passover starts in 5 days and goes on for a week. Because Obama is here screwing up our lives in my area of Jerusalem from now till Friday, I got 98% of my Passover shopping and deliveries taken care of by last night at 22:00 (10:00 PM), since the area was being closed down  by the Police and the Security Services at midnight.
   The last little bits I'll buy on Sunday, the day before the Holiday starts (The Passover Seder is on Monday evening). Then, Friday 29th Mar., is Good Friday for you and Western Christians, and Sunday 31st, is Easter Sunday.
  In a way, it's good - I got almost everything done already.
 But it is irritating to feel locked in - there are police and security patrolling everywhere in my area. On the other hand, I can lock my Browning 9 mm. pistol in my gun safe - It is certainly very safe here at the moment!
   
 Joey