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March 28, 2024, 01:08:43 pm
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Can't Imagine The Patience Involved During Early Chinese Snuff Bottle Carving

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Author Topic: Can't Imagine The Patience Involved During Early Chinese Snuff Bottle Carving  (Read 3857 times)
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George
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« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2015, 12:08:22 am »

A few more cool pics.. From a book, "The Story of Jade."





« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 06:23:17 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2015, 12:46:24 am »

Hi George,

Thank you for posting the interesting photos. Isn't it amazing that tools like these can create wonderful Suzhou styled jade or agate bottles?

Speaking of which (one of the book I am currently reading is "The Art of Chinese Snuff Bottle J&J Collection", which I recall you also bought a set of), something is bothering me about the inscriptions on Suzhou black/white nephrite bottles 24 and 25 when viewed with 2-10x magnification.

Do you think the inscription are done by the same people that made those bottles? Especially with regards to number 24, the inscribed calligraphy is horrible, when compared to the wonderful relief work and smoothing of the ground. For example the character for "lucky and star" are out of proportion/crooked internally.

The inscription on number 25 is better then 24, but I think I can still see the roughness in the inscribing that shows that it was not further polished, and it also seems very shallow. The inscription on number 26 is wonderful of a good depth and the polish is of the level that will match the rest of the bottle. Is this roughness and shallowness normal for a Suzhou bottle?

The relief work on both bottles (24 and 25) are wonderful, but the inscription feels like 2-3 levels beneath the relief. Is that the norm for Suzhou bottles?

Warmly,
David
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« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2015, 01:02:39 am »

Good observation David, and I think you placed them in the correct order in regards to calligraphy quality.

Very few of the Suzhou inscriptions go further than a brief description. The occasional signature, when it is not that of Lu Zigang ( which was used long after his death virtually as a stylistic label ). For the case when a given name only is carved, it might be that of the carver, but is as likely to be that of the inscriber ( poets etc ) who wrote the original lines inspiring the subject. Thus the difference in calligraphy style and quality as compared to the carver for the rest of the bottle.. ( reference , pg 71 )

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« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2015, 01:53:23 am »

Great photos George. It really is unbelievable how they managed to produce such flawless work using these primitive tools. It puts to shame modern jade bottles (produced on modern, electrically powered, high-speed equipment) when they are less than perfect, as is so often the case

It all comes down to attitude - patience, high expectations and pride in one's workmanship are the missing ingredients today.

Tom
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« Reply #64 on: January 12, 2015, 02:07:50 am »

Hi George,

Thank you for the explanation. I think I can see that for number 25, as the calligraphy inscribed still looks good/correct.

The reasons that I wonder if the inscription on number 24 was added on latter, instead of originally on it...

It says that on one side it is Mi Fei bowing to the rock that he acknowledges as his "brother", and the other side star (demigod/taosit god) of fortune.

For reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi_Fu, the painting shown there is the referred event.

The rocks that Mi Fei is enthralled with are Shou rock or Tai rock, or contemplation rocks use in garden level. They are not depicted on the bottle (only a small normal rock and a cliff, neither are right). The "horse" looks more like a donkey/Luo to me, and reminds me more of (Eight Immortal) Zhang Guolao.

To me, the scene is more like an elderly and accomplished scholar welcoming Zhang Guolao, who is the "patron saint" of artist and calligrapher.

I like good calligraphy inscription or reliefs in general, but to me those inscriptions clashes with the relief work of this bottle on so many levels.

David
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« Reply #65 on: January 12, 2015, 02:10:57 am »

Dear Tom,

Quote
It all comes down to attitude - patience, high expectations and pride in one's workmanship are the missing ingredients today.

Totally agree, for bottles, and everything else now-a-days.

David
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« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2015, 02:11:39 am »

Dear David,

Thanks for pointing out on the inscription that doesn't go with the carvings.
I have gone through this page and have not caught on to this fact. well done.

What do you think of this attached inscription?

Cheers,
YT


* B&W1.jpg (64.78 KB, 419x600 - viewed 25 times.)
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« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2015, 02:53:02 am »


The rocks that Mi Fei is enthralled with are Shou rock or Tai rock, or contemplation rocks use in garden level. They are not depicted on the bottle (only a small normal rock and a cliff, neither are right).


Dear David,

Thank you for pointing out this importatnt detail. I have seen quite a number of carved snuff bottles (mostly in chalcedony, not jade) showing Mi Fu bowing to a small cliff face or 'normal' rock. Perhaps it can be ascribed to 'artistic license', due to the bottle's natural markings not matching the appearance of a proper Shou/Tai rock. Or it could be the ignorance of the carver. But if the inscription specifically mentions he is acknowledging his 'brother', the carver should know better.

I cannot say too much about your other point (quality of calligraphy) since my eye has not been trained for it from early age. I do not have my copy of the J&J Collection book with me, but the low numbers you quote tell me they are in the jade portion, near the start of the book. When you get on to the Suzhou style bottles made of chalcedony, you will notice that when they have inscriptions (not all do) the quality is never good. I am not sure of the reason for this, but it seems logical to assume that the lapidaries were not very well educated, and their calligraphy skills did NOT match their carving skills.

Tom
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« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2015, 03:14:08 pm »

Dear Tom,

Thank you for the explanation regarding the rock, that is reasonable.

I am curious, for the other bottles with Mi Fu bowing to a normal rock or cliff, are they also inscribed (basically, if they carve a nice big tai/shou rock, then there will be no need for inscribing to point out what is carved. It is odd that they need to write down to show what is carved.)? Latter tonight, I will skip ahead to the Chalcedony section of this book or the others and see if there are any similar.

For the inscription, I am not trained in calligraphy but kind of had chances to see some while growing up. So, I can't tell the finer details, but can differentiate on a scale of 1 to 3 or 6 based on my preference. Number 25 is reasonable for what you mentioned.

The characters on 24 is like written by someone that do not know the basic structure of chinese character.

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David
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« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2015, 03:52:57 pm »

Dear YT,

This bottle is very nice, what material is it?

 Grin  Taking out my "axes" once more in front of experts....

If the material is Jade or harder material, I will rank it a 5 or 6 out of 6. I think it flows very nicely (unfortunately, I don't know all the words when in cursive, do you have it in print form? If you do, can you share it?)

Aside from the overall flow (thin/thick, and how the strokes curves/flows over other stroke with no attention drawn), I like
1) The space at 4th line after the 2 characters for "Until", perfect place physically, sentence wise (pause after saying the word until), and form (to line up column 3 , 4,  signature/seal subtly)
2) The medium is not paper, but if I assume the work area is the body of the bottle,  it is very well balanced on all 4 lines ( cross and diagonal cross)
3) The first character is cold, and the slightly off centered writing (I assume intentional, as other words are centered) of that character where light will sheen off the character, makes it colder.

This is way better than 24 (rank 1), 25 (rank 3), 26 (rank 4).

Is that a signature of the inscriber or of the original poet?
Why does he emphasize 3rd word 3rd column? If it is key to the inscription's meaning, then it is a 6 out of 6 to me (inscription calligraphy wise).

Kind Regards,
David
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« Reply #70 on: January 12, 2015, 10:00:35 pm »

Dear David,

I like the inscription even more after your analysis. The words in red does looked like the carver signing off. A pity the carving is nowhere compared to the inscription.
Just like the Suzhou carvings with bad inscriptions.

Black and white jade of compressed globular form with a flattened concave foot, small opening on a slightly concave lip, the large bottle (75mm height) well hollowed and gilt incised with a kaishu inscription. The other side carved in relief with 'butterfly and two cats amidst flowering shrubs'.

Cheers,
YT


* B&W2.jpg (44.37 KB, 331x500 - viewed 28 times.)

* B&W3.jpg (30.71 KB, 331x500 - viewed 25 times.)

* B&W4.jpg (36.38 KB, 500x332 - viewed 22 times.)
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #71 on: January 12, 2015, 10:19:34 pm »

Dear YT,
     Wonderful black and white nephrite jade bottle.
Dear David,
     Wonderful commentary.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2015, 12:41:09 am »

Dear YT,

It is still a pretty nice jade carving, rougher but still very clean and no confusion as to what is the theme. I also imagine it is harder to control white carve/polish over black.

Whew...  Cheesy now I can breathe easy... I am glad that my thoughts on your bottle was appropriate.

Kind Regards,
David
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« Reply #73 on: January 13, 2015, 12:56:23 am »

Dear Tom,

I looked ahead on the J&J book, then flipped through Kleiner's book on the Bloch collection, the Meriem collection, a couple of other reference and the catalogs that I have.

There are not too many Suzhou bottles (Chalcedony or Jade), I love the ones with relief calligraphy... amazing.

From the 4 or 5 other inscribed calligraphy that I saw, the inscription on bottle number 24 is really in a category of it's own. Most of them fall between number 25 and 26 interms of how much I like them, and I think one is better then 26.

I think I will bookmark this bottle on my book and comeback to it again after I read some more books, stare at some more photos online.

Best Regards,
David
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« Reply #74 on: January 13, 2015, 12:59:18 am »

Dear Joey,

Thank you.   Cheesy   

Stay warm,
David
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