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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 28, 2024, 10:18:05 am
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Lets Talk About Those Bubbles !

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George
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« on: March 05, 2012, 02:44:56 pm »

Well the ruby red bottle came today... Beautiful !

Not crizzled, but heavy on the bubbles..

Apparently that is a good sign towards estimating age.

Of course I "want to believe" that the heavy bubble concentration within my bottle could place it early Qing, so if anyone would like to chime in with opinions, comparisons, and or links to any relevant sites, that would be great.

Here is a pic of my bottle..



Air Bubbles Inside the Bottle Glass, circa 18th Century, but I do not know what the magnification that was used for the following two pics.



Air Bubbles Inside the Old Bottle Glass, circa 17th Century.



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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2012, 05:45:35 pm »

George, that shape is perfect.  How does your bottle's shape compare were early examples?  Bubbles don't denote age, as far as I know. Crizzling does - until the Chinese artisans succeed in copying it! ;-)
Joey
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2012, 06:04:17 pm »

George,

From the photo's the color of the bottle appears to be a vintage color.  However, if the neck flutes out as it progresses to the mouth, I have a very contemporary (last 5 yrs) enamel on black glass bottle that does the same.  This red bottle was interesting enough to me, regardless of age, that I was one of the under bidders by $30 on your bottle.  I was the first to bid on the bottle and did so before your post if I recall.  Apparently, calling 'first dibs' got me nowhere. Cheesy

Charll
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2012, 07:24:41 pm »

George, that shape is perfect.  How does your bottle's shape compare were early examples?  Bubbles don't denote age, as far as I know. Crizzling does - until the Chinese artisans succeed in copying it! ;-)
Joey

Just to have here in this thread... Here is a pic of my bottle.

I had found one with the same flared neck, and now darn if I can find it again ..




I did find this Les cahiers d'Alain Truong site with a commentary section that would like to share..

Lots of good reading, but here is something I found really interesting...

I do not know what the "Treasury 5" refers to.. Going to drop the author a line and ask..

" We know from Treasury 5, no. 804, bearing an authentic Yongzheng mark, that ruby-glass at this time was prone to be swirled, flawed, and bubble-suffused. The same may have been true of the Kangxi period. We do not know whether a problem afflicting the imperial glassworks would necessarily have plagued a private, princely glassworks, but it is likely that the same expertise and technology would have been made available to Yinti, who was close to the Jesuits. Among the ruby-glass examples bearing the Wanya xuan mark, several, such as this one, are of excellent quality, while others, such as Treasury 5, no. 753, are less pure. The latter is also considerably more convincingly worn than most."

My bottle shows swirling around the entire bottle.  Very hard to get a picture of, but here is one image that turned out ok..

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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 07:47:43 pm »


Here is the very best example of a bottle labeled Early Qing with similar extreme flared neck..

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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2012, 08:47:35 pm »

George....That is "Treasury 5, of the Bloch Collection".  The series of books that document the collection and run upward of $250 each.  Charll
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2012, 09:00:51 pm »

Does anyone happen to have the Treasury 5 showing the # 804 ?
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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 08:32:08 am »

JerryL has, Charll. I gave him all my set except for Bloch 4 (Inside Painted) and the one on Jade. I didn't need the other volumes, since I'm not collecting anything but IPs, Jades, and B&W Porcelains [I didn't buy 'Arts of the Fire' - I couldn't be bothered; and besides, I have "In Search of a Dragon".;-)].
  Joey
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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2012, 09:55:40 am »

Sent JerryL an email..

Thanks Joey  Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2012, 03:11:25 pm »

OK Guys - got it....Let me find 804 and i'll be back to you.

Jerry
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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2012, 03:15:51 pm »

804...The Emperor's Gem.  I need to get it in better light to get a good photo.

Bear with me.

Jerry
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2012, 04:09:25 pm »

Thanks, Jerry. Welcome back to the UK.
Joey
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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2012, 04:52:01 pm »

Jerry.. ,

As long as your in the book.. Could you also post a pic of #  753  ?
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« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2012, 09:35:46 am »

Everything ok Jerry ?

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« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2012, 06:53:07 am »

Ok... Yes, I am still hung up on this ruby red !

When I was first looking at , and taking pictures, I thought all of those spots were just really small air bubbles.

Now, looking closer ( much closer ! ) yes, there are a lot of obvious bubbles. But......,  after magnifying as much as possible, realize that 99% of those imperfections are actually not bubbles at all. They are dark flakes, pigments, or particles of some kind.

Would be nice to know how to tell if these dark spots might actually be the inclusion ( adventurine or avventurina ) of gold flakes used back in the day that gave the glass it's ruby coloring.

Forgive me for going on and on about this, but hey...., I sure am having a little fun with my first ruby red glass bottle..

I am on a mission !  Cheesy

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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2012, 03:35:58 pm »

The bits are often called frit by glass collectors, but that is not particularly correct. It is just contamination of the glass. The ruby colour is achieved by using gold (effectively but not actually dissolved in the glass) and not aventurine. Aventurine is a type of glass containing particles of copper that has a gold like appearance. In this case some of the particles may well be gold but not all.
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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2012, 10:06:17 pm »

Thank you Frank ...  Smiley
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