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Can You Identify This Porcelian Bottle?

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Author Topic: Can You Identify This Porcelian Bottle?  (Read 1068 times)
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rpfstoneman
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« on: February 24, 2012, 11:10:18 pm »


Charll’s Friday Night Bottle.   This porcelain bottle was purchased per a similar scenario as presented.

One evening you find yourself surfing ebay snuff bottle listings while watching television for an hour or two.  As you scroll down the listing you spot a number of bottles in a listing series that have some familiarity.  Upon opening one of the listings you take note that this is an ebay seller you have purchased from in the past.  The seller is Dan and Peg Chan who live in the US and have family ties in China.  Once every  month or so, over the last number of years, this seller lists 8 to 12 at a time which are nice quality,  middle of the road, contemporary bottles.  The listed bottles tend mostly to be nicely done carved glass and stone.   Each bottle listing has always started at $9.99. 

The seller has a good following of buyers, for each bottle listed tends to sell at a modest price from $18 to a rare high of $80.   Most bottles sell in the $30 range.  As you continue to scroll down the bottle listings by the seller you notice a bottle that is atypical of this seller, a porcelain bottle with a pink hue.  Upon opening the listing and clicking on the enlarge photo option, you notice that it appears to be a finely painted underglaze pink design of a water and wooded landscape with boats in the water and pavilions interconnected by wood walk ways on the land.  You wonder, could this be an actual painting or some sort of transfer or photo process design?



You immediately contact the seller and ask about the bottles’ condition and inquire as to its origins. The bottle as shown in the listing has no stopper or spoon.  An email comes back with the following information,

“The bottle was purchased in Beijing in 1985 by Dan’s father, who lived in China.  The bottle was held in his small collection until he passed away a few years back.   The bottles’ condition is very good with no nips, chips, or other signs of damage.  The bottle just has a few scratches around the main body, and some minor abrasions round the top of the bottles’ shoulder, nothing that can be easily seen without aid of magnification”.    Even if the bottle is done by a transfer method or by some means other than hand painting, you decide to take the risk and place a bid.  The quality of the work appears to rival that of any stenciled interior painted design, so you start getting excited about the possibilities. 

So here what I wish to know,

1) From the photos presented is the bottle contemporary or old?

2) If considered to be old, what is the period?

3) Given the type of bottles listed by this seller what bid would you place and/or how much would you be willing to pay for such a bottle?  Remember there is no stopper or spoon, just the topless bottle.

4) What is the painting style called, and is it worthy of your collection?

5) Any other opinions or comment about this bottle?

Enjoy Charll
   



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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2012, 11:39:52 pm »

I do not collect nor have any real experience with porcelain, but to want to join it  !

Marked Qianlong Nian Zhi , but a contemporary from early 20th, probably Hong Kong about 1960..

So if I were to bid on it, would not be for the age, but the quality of painting and fireing.. Plus, I believe the pink color is quite unusual ? So, because of the finely detailed painting, I would bid upwards of 200.00..   

I do not know that painting style..



« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 11:42:11 pm by Bottle Guy » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2012, 12:02:09 am »

I will pretend to have a little bit knowledge on the porcelain bottle here Tongue

1, I  will vote for contemporary bottle, both top rim and base rim don't look right to me. The base seal writing is very weak compared with old period. The painting is too detail oriented , but the brush strokes look not that strong too.

2, I will vote 80s-90s, (when you buy antique, you can't 100% believe the background stories)

3,I will place $250-$300, will wish I can get it under $250.00

4,Walter might answer this for you Wink

5, no matter what , this is absolutely beautiful bottle, modern or old, who cares.



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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2012, 12:31:39 am »

Btw, this kind of color called rouge red in china... I am not sure I am right,maybe Tom can help to correct me...
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Tom B.
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2012, 12:38:31 am »

Hi Charll,

Nice story and decorative bottle.  I can't come to grips with this bottle being painted "underglaze pink".  The following is a close-up of a Liling underglaze Famille Rose decoration.



I have never seen underglaze pink that could be painted like your snuff bottle, I am fairly certain that it is painted with pink enamel over the glaze.

I will give my other answers later tomorrow after other members have replied, but will tell Steven that the answer to #4 is:

4. Camaïeu (also called en camaïeu) is a technique that employs two or three tints of a single color, other than gray, to create a monochromatic image without regard to local or realistic color. When a picture is monochromatically rendered in gray, it is called grisaille; when in yellow, cirage.

Best regards,

Tom
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Best regards,

Tom B.

rpfstoneman
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« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2012, 03:06:05 am »


OK, Tom may have touched upon one illusion.  It could be an enamel on porcelain.  It appears to be an underglazed because of a very smooth surface.  No rise in a surface enameling can be seen with a magnifying glass or felt by touch.  If it is a surface application, then it is micro thin.  Also, the entire surface has a very subtle mat finish (i.e., not reflection glossy) that is comparable to known bottles with age.   

Charll
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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2012, 01:06:16 pm »

Hi Tom,

I found some pink enamel on porcelain ware of Qing period, you can see the surface is not smooth at all.

I guess yours can be painted by artificial color, which is a sign of modern bottle.and your color is a little off tho..
 


* yzh.jpg (80.74 KB, 600x450 - viewed 16 times.)

* yzh2.jpg (74.07 KB, 500x774 - viewed 23 times.)

* yzh3.jpg (29.55 KB, 400x588 - viewed 17 times.)
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2012, 01:24:25 pm »


Ya, this is a tough one to crack.  Another bit of information: the pink design is brush work.  Under magnification you see areas of pink lines that have varying densities of paint due to brush strokes.  Were the brush was first placed and often the end, and where lines overlap, are denser in color. 

Joey, will likely have an idea on this on, and I thought Tom work get it right off.  Contemporary or Jingdezhen, 1760-1820?   
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« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2012, 01:50:35 pm »

Hi, Everyone. Shavua Tov (A Good week)!
  I had guests all Shabbat, so couldn't get on the Forum. Hospitality is important, but I missed the interaction with you all.
1.&2. My first reaction was ca. 1890-1920. Then I looked at the mark, and moved my dating to 1980-2000.
3. I would say $200-300.
4. I don't know about painting style, but considering the ability to micro-control kiln temperatures today, the firer could have produced underglaze copper red pale enough to be this pink. Or, it could be overglaze pink enamel. The painting quality is superb, and I must admit it would tempt me, even though I believe it to be a 'contemporary bottle'.
5. I remember, dimly, a bottle or bottles with this pink version of grisaille (don't know the 'camaleu' term), which came up at least 10 years ago, and were period (old).
Joey
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« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2012, 03:17:09 pm »

The surface looks so smooth that I would say underglaze red one first guess.  Then I think some more and now I am not sure:

- this is a snuff bottle and this is a 4 inch bottle, give or take, right (?) Of all underglaze red I have seen, even the so called national treasure caliber, I have never seen this kind of sharp and crisp lines.  Just look at the crack lines of the rocks.  They are razor sharp.

- The pink is so even.  One of the reason underglaze red is so precious is the difficulty to produce a even color on the whole piece.  (one good example is the red on the throat on Tom's peacocks) This one seems to completely consistent through the whole bottle

So I agree with Joey, if this a underglaze red (pink?) it was created with modern technology.  And regardless the type of ware, the details are exquisite.  Beautiful little thing.
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« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2012, 03:26:48 pm »

All……when I start a thread like this it usually means I need some help or verification on a bottle.  Often I think I have the answer, but your responses, comments, and questions help me hone in on the truth about the bottle.   I’ve shown this bottle to a dealer or two and a few collectors over the past year.  Their responses as to how old and what this bottle is have been all over the place. Again, I think this ‘puce’ bottle is one of two things that are on the opposite ends of a time scale.  So, this is not only a fun exercise (at least for me) while I’m researching the bottle, but it provides a feedback and/or conformation loop; which is greatly appreciated by the way!

Thanks for the participation and help, and keep the comments coming.  I'll give my answer when I feel we have exhausted the possibilities.

Charll
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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 05:19:27 pm »


Thanks Walter, I knew I forgot something, dimensions!  This is a small bottle, just 2.5 inches (6.3 cm) tall without the stopper and just over ¾ inches wide (2.2 cm).

Charll   
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« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2012, 08:31:54 pm »

A Nordic Butterfly Collection Bottle-



“This bottle ranks among the masterpieces of enameled porcelain of the Mid Qing period.  It is painted in a very rare palette, for snuff bottles, of ruby-red enamel, although this was used in the Beijing Palace workshops during the Yongzheng and Qianlong periods (1723-1795) to decorate a superb series of porcelain bowls with landscapes.

This bottle is clearly inspired by those bowls, although the cylindrical form developed on snuff bottles was toward the end of the 18th century and was at its height of popularity throughout the 19th century.  The painting is in classic literati style and shows a delicate and subtle control of line of brush and the white space, let to suggest mist in the mountains.”  (Quote from Robert Kleiner, in ‘The Nordic Butterfly Collection of Chinese Snuff Bottles, Part II’, 2010)

The post bottle here is from the ‘The Nordic Butterfly Collection of Chinese Snuff Bottles, Part II’, page 165, Lot 363.  The Nordic bottle is 7.3 cm in height.  Many similarities to the bottle I posted.  An egg-shape bottle decorated in ruby-red enamel was also in the Bloch Collection: Part II sale held on Tuesday 23, 2010, Hong Kong, Lot 26.
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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2012, 04:35:33 am »

Charll,
     Robert Kleiner writes well (I should know - he wrote my Blue & White collection catalogue!), and worked for Sotheby's cataloguing and researching snuff bottles for over 15 years, before he started as a dealer. And his family started collecting snuff bottles as a group around the same time I did, but spending a lot more at that time.  He is one of THE experts on Blue & White porcelain snuff bottles, and also on inside painted snuff bottles, but  would know his stuff in most categories.
    I didn't buy the Nordic Butterfly Collection catalogue, since I felt a number of bottles in it were 'suspect', and it was not a cheap catalogue (I think over US$150). Per Kristensen, the owner, is a friend, who has received all my catalogues as gifts over the years. I would have happily accepted one from him as a gift, and less happily paid the postage to send it to Ireland from Hawaii (the catalogue came out in 2010 at the Honolulu Con., and Per exhibited them there in the Dealers' room, along with a superb collection belonging to the Fotis from Italy. Some of Per's bottles were top-rate, but others were questionable.   
   So your bottle is a contemporary one in the style of Per's. Look at how crowded it looks compared to Per's. I don't think his has a mark to the base, but am not positive.  Yours actually looks MORE scholarly, in the style of the Four Wangs of the 17th C., from the point of 'hemp-fibre strokes' etc., on the mountains.
  Puce! That is the term I was looking for, instead of "pink version of grisaille"!
It would be interesting to put the two side by side, as Tom did with some IPs.
Joey
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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2012, 07:41:49 am »

That  Nordic  bottle  is  in a  class  of its  own

See the  open-ness  and  the  delicate   strokes

Beautiful

Peter
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