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Glass Crizzling

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David
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« Reply #80 on: November 01, 2014, 12:41:38 am »

Hi Giovanni,

Although I am moving away from your theory, I did not mean it in the sense of denying it. I was in a rush to type down something earlier. Today is a little hectic.

I mean that I am moving back to thinking that my thought is feasible after being partially moved back by your words. I really think it is both.

First to clarify, I agree the glass is weakened, and even manufactured poorly during the time when modern overlay bottles are made. I also can see that when they work it themselves, that they don't know what they are doing and making the issues even worse.

But, I also think if you have this glass worked by a craftsman of the past, then these crackling will not occur.    Shocked

The reason I like the video, is that it shows what I did not understand about glass. The internal stress. Cooling in water is like what you were saying, they cooled the glass too fast. This is a defect in the manufacturing of the glass.

I always thought that if you heat up or cool down the glass too fast. At a certain speed of change in temperature, the difference in contraction/expansion at one side or one area versus the other side with a different temperature will become to large and the glass will crack. But, if the shear force caused by the temperature change difference is not strong enough to split the glass, then since the breaking point was not reached, the original strength of the glass is still there. But this only applies to temperature stress after the glass is formed.

What did not get through my mind (which I think you assumed I already know), was this effect. I did not know that energy can be stored in glass like this! If I had, I would have been making these tear drops during chemistry or physics class... you will not believe the kind of neat tricks I can do with this!   Tongue

Please correct me if my understanding is wrong. I have no background in glass and read a few Wikipedia documents... Please bear with me for the case of a spherical Prince Rupert's Drop instead of teardrop.

Please correct me at any point where I am mistaken, mislead, confused or went off on the deep end! (As I am typing, I am enjoying a couple of bottles of brown new castles)   Grin
 
Glass is melted, absorbs thermal energy, expands to take up more space.

The sphere drops forms, when molten glass is dripped into water. Two kinds of glasses are formed.

The surface of the molten glass drop rapidly lose temperature due to evaporating the water that came in contact to it.

As the surface of the drop losses thermal energy, it start to recrystalize sharply like a step function into solid glass.

Slightly beneath the surface, losses less thermal energy, but still recrystalizes to a certain depth.

These surface/near surface molten glass that crystalize will also contracts very strongly. They also form a shell of crystalized glass. This is the first form, a fast cool down shell layer violently formed.

This shell of crystalized glass exerts pressure inwards on the still molten ball of glass that did not cool down sufficiently yet to become glass.

This internal molten ball of glass now has a large amount of pressure coming in at all side forcing it to take up less space. For a short duration of time, this pressure will also force the temperature of this molten ball even higher. As the pressurized ball slowly lose thermal energy by transfer through the shell of glass and then through water, the second kind of glass is formed. Will call it core.

When this core is being formed slowly, it will start to slowly contract when it crystalizes. Initially it is crystalized under positive pressure from the contracted shell. Eventually, the inner regions is crystalized under negative pressure, because it is now in a solid area that is airtight and strong.

The innermost region of the core is trying to contract itself into a smaller area then it is currently taking.

The shell and outer area of the core combined is like hardened glass made under high pressure and heat, so can counter the contracting force and maintain the current shape it is in.

But due to the contracting force, the crystal lattice of the glass is now compressed. The crystal lattice wants to revert back to original shape or shear off. It can not shear off, because the force is applied evenly inwards. It can not revert, because the contracting force is connected and applied evenly. This compressed lattice is the hardened glass?

This contracting of the inner core and the counter of the outer core + shell is then at equilibrium.

This equilibrium have a large momentum before it can be disturbed. The compressed lattice creates a very dense layer of folded glass that can be stronger than steel.

This glass can now withstand a hammer blow.

Please let me know if this is correct. I hope I did not make a fool of myself in front of someone that works with glass.

But....     Grin   It's my relax time!

David

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« Reply #81 on: November 01, 2014, 02:26:26 am »

Dear David,
I am not expert on glass! I never worked in the glass field. My comments are only based on logic, or better, on what I think is logical, as I think is your case too since you too said that are not expert on glass.
So I don’t know if your reasoning is correct, it seems logical but I think that doesn’t explain everything. Not your fault, but because glass is a really complicated matter. I too have been impressed by the video, I didn’t know that (thank you Pin for the link) but I think that the reason of the explosion explained there, which is in agreement with what you said, doesn’t explain everything.
For example, we know that glass is not really a solid, but indeed a liquid with an extreme high viscosity. Very old window glasses suffer a deformation due to this viscosity, the glass tend to flow downwards. Because of the collection of his mother, our friend Joey knows very well that old buried glasses are deformed by the pressure of the soil without breaking. So due to this property, I am wondering if what we have seen in the video  will always occur also on old Prince Rupert’s Drops. Due to glass viscosity, we should expect that the internal stress should nullify. Who knows?
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #82 on: November 01, 2014, 03:09:04 am »

Sorry Giovanni, I misunderstood your post. When you mentioned the binding for hanging the power wires, oven glass and reason corking for bottles (not snuff), I thought you were technical in glass.

I don't think fluid flow of glass will affect this effect. I actually had a 2nd round of thoughts on this, but I wanted to see if I had made a mistake in my understanding of what I read. Just for the sake of discussion, and assume that I more or less understood the Prince Rupert's Drop effect. If someone points out where I am wrong, I will backtrack my one of my thought process and restart from there.

Assume I understand the basics. There is an additional layer that I am pulling in from chemical process, it is called simulated annealing. This can be applied for things like glass or metal.

It is basically, you shatter something, then you fix it. Then you shatter it again, and then you fix it.

You repeat this process, over and over. With each shatter and fix, you are strengthening the material. Because at each shatter, the weak one will shatter. Then you fix the shattered weak zone. At the next shatter, the next weaker zone will shatter, which you will fix.

With each cycle, it will shatter less and less. Then you stop, when you reach the desired level of strength or when it is no longer cost effective.


I think during the rapid cool down, when the shell is forming. Something like this is happening.

As the shell contracts, it will crack. When it crack, the molten glass in side will be squeezed out. The squeezed out molten glass will contact water and crystalize. Once sealed, the annealed glass will contract further until it cracks again and this whole process is repeated.

Eventually, the glass shell is so strong that it will no longer crack. This is the point where the molten core is finally sealed.


I think something like this is inside the camphor and bubble glass bottles. I don't know how they form the bubble or how they add the contaminate for the snowflake. But what I think is that, somehow there are tiny zones of this spheres inside these glasses. Or perhaps like you mentioned due to bad processing, modern bottle have more of these little spheres inside it.

Each of these spheres is like a little bomb. When they are carving it, they are triggering all these little bomb. But, they can polish off the evidence (or they can add some kind of resin/opticon to strengthen it ... like what they are doing with bleached jade).

I saw the pictures on sotheby's of the chi-dragon, the manchu script, and a few others. I use an apple desktop, and I can further expand and blow up the photo image, it will also clarify the blown image up to a certain point. I looked very carefully at the carving, and the polish of the base bottle.

It is beautiful! I can not detect one edge, bump or gouge anywhere I looked. When you look at the overlay intersection to the base on the palace bottles, it is incredible! They will even lightly polish the overlay edge so that all the edge is not touching the base bottle. I can not imagine the time, care and soul that these people put into their craft. And it is only a small 1-1.5 inch work area!


I think like you said, the modern base material is bad. But I also think that bad carve/polish work weakens the material, such that a simple knock, a small temperature change, a push/pull of the cork will cause those chips/splits to widen. Eventually, they hit a bomb and a slow chain reaction starts.

 Cheesy  That's my 2 bronze cent. Thank you pin for the 2 golden cents, that help me come up with something I think is reasonable.

Warm Regards,
David


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« Reply #83 on: November 01, 2014, 08:13:29 am »

Dear David,
please excuse me if I tell you frankly what I think, but in my opinion you are seeing things too much complicate.  Your last theory is not right in my opinion. Thinking of hardening the glass by a successive series of breaking and gluing back it could work only if the glue is harder than glass, don’t you think so? Which glue is harder than glass? On the same way, it is not possible that the outer, hardened skin of the sphere of glass dipped in water passes through a series of cracking and melting because to join again the crack it is necessary that the two parts to be joined has to melt again; it is unthinkable a series of solidification/melting cycles. I don’t know what happens in that specific case, but I am pretty sure that anybody knows exactly in deep. In the video they provide a logical explication, but it is very general, most probably correct but not detailed enough. You have to think that when you fire a porcelain glazed piece not all the phenomenon that happens in the kiln are known. And this is a slow process. Imagine the interpretation of a fast process like the melted glass dropped into cold water. As a small example, in my last job I performed tests on dynamic braking resistors for locomotives. They are made by strips of stainless steel that dissipate the kinetic energy of the train into heat. The device transform a type of energy, the kinetic one, into another type of energy, the thermal one. So the kinetic energy disappear then  the train stops. Many does not realize that , but it is exactly what happens when you brake your car. It is usually thought that the car stops because the braking clamp are locking the wheels. That is only true when the car is stopped. But when you are braking a moving car, the braking clamps are indeed doing a transformation of energy, dissipating the kinetic energy of the car into heat. Well, coming back to the dynamic braking system of the train, those stainless steel strips reaches a temperature of 800 degrees Celsius while the train is braking. If it is raining, do you knows what happens? The drops of water doesn’t reach the steel, before to touching the steel each drop, which is approaching at a very high speed, explodes because it is instantly transformed into steam. You clearly hear the noise produced by the small explosions. I said all this to give an idea of what can happens in the zone of the surface area between the melted glass and the water.
In my opinion, also thinking that any type of glass, even the worst one, could be affected by the cork friction or the ambient temperature change is totally a non sense to me. The friction of the cork is the one needed for avoiding that a 1 gram weighing stopper doesn’t drops. It is almost null. If that could harm the glass, then I couldn’t use the wine bottles that was used by my grandfather; believe me the pressure and friction of a wine cork is really relevant. The same about the temperature change. Which thermal stress has to stand a bottle in Tom’s drawers at his home? A temperature spam of 20 degrees Celsius distributed along six months? Come on, if that can affect the glass bottle then you could not have glass windows at your home. They would crack completely every day.
Just another thing. When I said that I would not be surprised if bubbled glass could be stronger than plain glass (I didn’t say that it is, I said that I would not be surprised if it is) I was meaning the following. It is difficult to explain to me but let see if I can. Suppose that you bend a plate of plain glass. When you reach its bending braking point, which depends mainly from thickness and elasticity module, the plate breaks. The trigger point starts from the surface that is elongated by the bending action and goes straight through the body of the plate. Now imagine that the glass body is filled by bubbles. It is true that despite the total thickness of the plate remain the same, the real thickness of glass is much less. But you have to take into account that the bubbles are indeed spherical surfaces, which are extremely strong. The cracking energy will be spread along the spherical surface of each bubble, then loosing energy, and the path of the cracking will be probably longer. I am not saying that it will happens that, I repeat that I will not be surprised if it happens. I remember that when I was young the main competitor of the Ferrari in prototype racing were Ford. Because Ford was not able to beat Ferrari, the rules was changed, increasing the allowable displacement engine. Despite that, in a famous racing all the three Ferrari cars arrived in the three first places, while most of the Ford had failures. I remember that I read that the crank shaft of the Fords was solid steel, while that of the Ferrari was hollow and transversely drilled by holes. All this gave them three advantages: less weight,  better lubrication and more strength. The shape, in matter o strength, is very important.
Anyway, I am not expert on glass, but to me the problem is most probably related to the type of glass. As said, I have never heard before about crizzling.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #84 on: November 01, 2014, 08:22:28 am »

Dear David, all, and especially Tom,
I have just googled about crizzling, and found a clear answer on Wikipedia. It seems that the phenomenon is well known, and it is related to a bad glass formula and the exposure to high humidity. In reading that I remembered that where Tom lives there is a very high humidity in the air. Here is the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_disease
Anyway, what they say is:
“Glass disease, also known as sick glass, is a degradation process encountered in art conservation. Glass disease is caused by an inherent fault in the chemical composition of the original glass formula. Usually, inadequate calcium oxide causes the alkalis in the glass to remain water soluble at a low level. Exposure to higher levels of relative humidity during storage or display causes these salts to hydrate and leach out of the glass. Upon a reduction of relative humidity, these hydrated salts can then form a crust on the surface. This process causes a complex disintegration of the glass which can be identified through a variety of symptoms. One such sign is the aforementioned crusty deposits which can form a visible hard alkaline coating on the surface. Another symptom is a distinctive network of fine cracking, also called crizzling, which can reduce the transparency of the glass or even threaten the integrity of the structure.”
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #85 on: November 01, 2014, 03:16:21 pm »

Hi Giovanni,

 Smiley You are right, I tend to see things too complicated. And it does not make sense to a lot of people, so I am used to it. Time is a relative term from a reaction's perspective, in chemical reaction 1 sec can be an eternality. But, let's not beat a dead horse, I can see your points.

Without finding a real expert, or to have the bottles in a lab with some equipment, I am not sure how to validate what I am saying. There is actually a way to view internal stress/stored energy and it's distribution on materials, I think it uses photo birefringence or something like that.

I do appreciate you taking the time and digging out these interesting information from your past experience.
A lot of them is informative for me.

Warm Regards,
David
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« Reply #86 on: November 01, 2014, 04:12:27 pm »

Dear David,
I think that what is said in Wikipedia is a complete explication of the crizzling phenomenon. Two are the main causes: quality of the glass, unfortunately there is nothing to do against this, and relative humidity, which can be controlled. Sealed boxes with some Silicagel inside and the problem should not appear.
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Giovanni
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« Reply #87 on: November 01, 2014, 04:37:16 pm »

The simplest solution is always best.  Smiley

Kind Regards,
David
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« Reply #88 on: November 01, 2014, 06:28:21 pm »

Dear David, all, and especially Tom,
I have just googled about crizzling, and found a clear answer on Wikipedia. It seems that the phenomenon is well known, and it is related to a bad glass formula and the exposure to high humidity. In reading that I remembered that where Tom lives there is a very high humidity in the air. Here is the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_disease
Anyway, what they say is:
“Glass disease, also known as sick glass, is a degradation process encountered in art conservation. Glass disease is caused by an inherent fault in the chemical composition of the original glass formula. Usually, inadequate calcium oxide causes the alkalis in the glass to remain water soluble at a low level. Exposure to higher levels of relative humidity during storage or display causes these salts to hydrate and leach out of the glass. Upon a reduction of relative humidity, these hydrated salts can then form a crust on the surface. This process causes a complex disintegration of the glass which can be identified through a variety of symptoms. One such sign is the aforementioned crusty deposits which can form a visible hard alkaline coating on the surface. Another symptom is a distinctive network of fine cracking, also called crizzling, which can reduce the transparency of the glass or even threaten the integrity of the structure.”
Kind regards
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,

Thank you for this great piece of info.
Your points are always well thought out, informative and covered with facts. Smiley

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #89 on: November 01, 2014, 07:37:08 pm »


Wikipedia describes crizzling in terms of degradation over time, chemical formulas, inadequate calcium oxide, etc, etc.. 

If in fact there is some connection between the act of carving and possible damage to the glass, not so sure this type of cracking could be called crizzling.  Same with the possibility of cracking over time as a result of the initial interaction between a hot overlay, and cold base bottle when the hot overlay is applied.

Perhaps if someone kept track over time, record the findings, and summarize a detailed explanation for each example, a pattern may develop.. Although with humidity being part of the formula, we would also have to track the bottles travels !

Not sure we will ever be able know a specific reason for cracking of newer overlay bottles..  It apparently happens to both "blobbed", and carved overlays..

Take this bottle ( image three ) that Tom shared has cracked all over within the past five years.  I do not think this a true overlay. Looks to me like in this case the overlay was lobbed on.. One thing that stand out for me about this bottle is the cracking extends straight up from within the base glass and straight through the overlay.. One solid crack..

Then here is another ( image two ) cracked bottle Tom shared that does appear to have been completely dipped and carved.. In this case only the base glass has recently cracked, and the overlay is in perfect condition.. 

In Tom's bottle cases, perhaps a dramatic difference in humidity played a huge part.. Both these bottles traveled around the globe !





 
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« Reply #90 on: November 02, 2014, 07:26:24 am »

What I think i want to do for my bottles .....

1) Buy a dry cabinet, this time not for my camera, but for the bottles
2) Probably control the humidity to around 65%...... Anyone know of a better Humidity setting?
3) Hand carry my bottles if they need to travel with me
 
One point of consideration if u use silica gel people..... The humidity might go very low if you put excess amt into a air tight box.... If you ask me, I will say that it's going to be really bad for your painted bottles, the paint is going to be really dried out and it might start peeling off under prolong exposure....

B/s : YT have you purchased your dry cabinet? There's plenty selling near peninsular area. Check out SG Camera .... I buy mine there for my camera....

Pin
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« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2014, 07:42:01 am »

Dear Pin,

I have not gotten anything yet but going to do soon after Giovanni's comment about humidity.
Thanks for the info on Peninsula.
I think 65% is a bit high though and I know about the silica gel in the camera boxes. My colleague has them in his camera box and the reading dropped to 25%. All his rubber lining cracked after a few weeks.

Cheers,
YT

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« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2014, 08:33:47 am »

Yes dear Pin,
I think you are right, a certain tax of humidity is necessary. The problem is how much, I have no idea about that.
Giovanni
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« Reply #93 on: November 02, 2014, 08:48:34 am »

I set my dry box at 50% for the camera.....usually, it will be 50ish at the end of the day...

I am guessing that pigment and paint will prefer a little more moisture compare to camera and lens.... Will research a little and if I find anything, will let you know...

Pin
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« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2014, 09:34:22 am »

2 painting sites says 45-55% in summer, 40-45% in winter

Someone from a camera site observed that museum set at 50%

I think I will go by 50%.....

Pin

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« Reply #95 on: November 02, 2014, 10:17:40 am »

Jerusalem is great because, being on the edge of the desert, it has very low humidity. My inside painted bottles and paintings are fine.
Joey
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« Reply #96 on: November 02, 2014, 11:46:52 pm »

Thanks guys,
     I have never heard of a dry cabinet before, so had to google it to find out. I see it's like a humidor (for cigars) but in reverse. Having read about them I would say it wasn't worth buying one for my low grade glass snuff bottles. And I've never had a problem with camera equipment kept in Bangkok.
   But I WILL consider buying one for my books. I have some very valuable 100-200 year old books which are being attacked by fungus and insects. I periodicaly freeze them to kill the bugs (as practiced by local libraries), but that is having little effect on the fungus.  Good to know about!

Tom
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« Reply #97 on: November 03, 2014, 02:02:13 am »

Dear Tom,
just an instinctive reaction. Are you sure that the freezing technique will not be worst? I expect that when you take out the book from the freezer, being it very cold, the air humidity will tend to condensate on the paper then it will re-absorb humidity. You probably will not notice that because, being paper, the humidity will be absorbed within it.
I think that instead of freezing, putting the book in the microwave oven should be much more effective. The microwave heathens only water containing parts and metals, so the insects will be dried, the fungus too and the paper too. The paper should not be heathen, if not really slightly. I imagine also that the fat from insect’s body is being absorbed by paper after the freezing, leaving micro fat spots on it. Probably it will not be so if the bodies are dried. You could perform the test on a less valuable book. Take care that no metal parts are in the book. I don’t know which type of books you have, but for example the miniatures of medieval books most often has real gold on it.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #98 on: November 03, 2014, 03:40:52 am »

Dear Giovanni,
     Thank you for your thoughts on using a microwave. I remember you have mentioned this before. The traditional method of killing insects is fumigation. But this is costly, complicated, and involves a fumigation chamber. The freezing method is recommended by book preservationists as a cheap and effective alternative, and is practised by several important libraries in Bangkok, including the Siam Society, which has one of the largest collections of old books on Southeast Asia.
     Before inserting in the freezer the books must be carefully wrapped and sealed in plastic film (I use 'ziplock' bags from the supermarket). You must be sure to squeeze out all the excess air. They must be kept at below minus 10 deg C for at least 3 days to kill the bugs. After removal from the freezer, the books must stay sealed inside the plastic for 24 hours, so that the paper can return to normal room temperature. I usually leave them wrapped for 1-2 extra days to be safe.
     I have never seen any book preservationist recommend microwave, but I will ask the librarian at the Siam Society.

Regards,
Tom 
PS: But I don't own a microwave anyway...  Sad
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« Reply #99 on: November 03, 2014, 03:46:05 am »

Dear Tom,
you are right, we have already discussed that. I am getting old, my memory fails!
Giovanni
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