Ting Erh chung ?

[George]

Not sure about the painting.. Can not find anything even remotely close.. Yet the signature looks like Ting ??

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Am i crazy or did we discuss this bottle somewhere before? yes it is a Ding Er Zhong signature, BUT although a very nice painting, it is 80s/90s bottle, and not the real thing, in my view. 

[George]

Am i crazy or did we discuss this bottle somewhere before?

Maybe it is me that is crazy, and in fact did ask about it already !

Thanks Pat !

[George]

Here is another that I am questioning about really being painted by Ting Erhchung...

Comments ??

[Steven]

Dear George,

I have been on ebay for more than 2 years, have not seen any single REAL Ding Erzhong or Zhou leyuan bottle.

Steven

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

George,
   I would tend to go with Steven on this.
Shabbat Shalom,
   Joey

[George]

Thanks Steven and Joey 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

My pleasure, George.
Shabbat Shalom,
     Joey

[seadancer1]

Not sure about the painting.. Can not find anything even remotely close.. Yet the signature looks like Ting ??

What a beautiful bottle........for the life of me I cannot understand why bottles like these are dismissed as 'nice but not very important' and yet I have seen bottles that I would'nt have in a fit, raved over! I hope I never get that elitist and just admire them for their beauty and the work thats gone into them......if that makes me a 'common' collector so be it!
Cheers, Brenda

[Bottleinpocket]

both are fake dingerzhong's IP bottle, First one it was signed as " ren yin" that means this bottle was produced in 1902 , in that year , this famous IP artist always used 3 personal stamps for his painted bottle, this bottle is lack of another two stamps " ding" and " erzhong＂although it is painted very well . The second one was signed as"bingzi" that means this bottle waas produced in 1876 or 1936 , Mr. Ding was born in 1868 and died in 1935 , so....8 year old boy or a ghost .....;-)
Just my two cents

Grant

[seadancer1]

Maybe so Grant, but it does'nt take away from its beauty, fake or not!
Cheers, Brenda

[Wattana]

Brenda,

You are right in that one should always use one's own aesthetic tastes to judge an object. And I agree that the painting on this bottle is very well executed. But it is sad that artists, and so many of them, feel obliged to fake the name of a past master to try and hike the value. If they lack the self-esteem to sign the bottle in their own name, this somewhat dilutes the appeal.

Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brenda,
   If you want to buy a beautiful bottle falsely signed Ding Erzhong, that's your right. But the bottle, as pretty as it is, is NOT by Ding Erzhong, and I don't like fakes. Truthfully, no-one who really knows anything about his work would confuse this with Ding's work.
   But George could have gotten cheated. Let the artist sign his or her true name, and I actually could have been tempted by this bottle. But not signed Ding Erzhong...
   If I tried to sell you a really beautiful CZ as a genuine diamond, would you argue that you prefer it at the same price as a genuine diamond ewhich is not as impressive looking?
I would hope not.
Joey

[seadancer1]

A quote from the book ......'Chinese Snuff Bottles a Guide to Addictive Miniatures'  By Trevor Cornforth & Dr Nathan Cheung

'It has been common practice for centuries in China to replicate the work of earlier craftsmen, and even to replicate their marks and signatures...but this was not done specifically for gain, in the sense of deceiving buyers, but was condidered a sign of great respect to a revered predecessor and refered to as a "nod to the past"  '
I would like to think this is so with this bottle......after all, if one was going to deliberately fake something why miss doing the signature correctly and so obviously..... to a collector of genuine Ding Erhong bottles it would defeat the purpose to be so blatant.
If the bottle was painted in  reverence to the original artist, then I dont consider it a fake....and so I am willing to give this  artist the benefit of the doubt. 

[Wattana]

Brenda,

There is an IP artist somewhere out there who loves you for saying that! 

Tom

[seadancer1]

Thanks Tom....I wont say no to that! 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brenda,
    That's the point I'm making! The signature IS right.
It is the painting, which is very good, but not at all in the style of Ding, and instead, in the 1970s/1980s 'non-political subject' genre (lots and lots of 'political subject' bottles were produced at this time - I have at least a dozen; and all really well painted! If you like pictures of a Black man sowing PRC-supplied seed, or a muscular CCP soldier pulling back a horse with a gun carriage from falling over a cliff, these are great!).
   And all paintings that I know of made as an homage to a great master's work, and not as a fake to fool the unwary, ALWAYS have an inscription signed by the genuine artist, and including the catch-phrase,"Following the brush spirit of..." and the master's name. And they are done IN THE STYLE OF. This is signed "Ding Erzhong" (and a very credible copy it is, of the correct signature), and in a totally modern style, and not even copying a known example by him.
   So, to recap:
1. No real signature
2. Fake Ding Erzhong signature
3. Not in Ding's style
4. Not a Ding subject
5. No phrase, "Following the brush spirit of..."

  It's a fake, Brenda.   

And Tom, it's not the artist who will thank her. It is the CCP party apparatchnik whose unit made the money from selling the fake to the decadent running dogs of Western Capitalism, who couldn't even tell the difference between a genuine Ding and a bad fake of a Ding! 
Best to all,
Joey
   

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Somewhere in our vast archives I made a point about this. Shandong IP artist factories were producing thousands of these in the 70s 80s. 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Pat,
   Yes you did. And I took it on board. But our archives are so vast, that not everyone finds all the pearls of wisdom spread before them. 
Best,
 Joey

Somewhere in our vast archives I made a point about this. Shandong IP artist factories were producing thousands of these in the 70s 80s. 

[wgeoff]

What do the expert's think about this bottle, for auction by Bonham's Australia on 22 June, 'attributed to Ding Erzhong' and apparently going for a very small price



here

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22082/lot/2/

It doesn't look like a Ding Erzhong painting to me but I'm no expert

Geoff