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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
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Seller with some nice ones !

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George
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« on: February 10, 2012, 12:11:28 am »


This seller is offering some pretty nice bottles...

Some especially nice porcelain ones..



« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 12:18:05 am by Bottle Guy » Report Spam   Logged

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Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2012, 06:57:29 am »

Hi  George

That's  pretty amazing  stuff

And   some  very  beautiful ones   !

I can't  imagine that  anyone   could   be  so  "clever"   as to assemble  that  lot  all  as  fakes,   so my  guess  is that's  all genuine.

As  to  what  it's   really   worth  I  have  not the  foggiest  idea. 

I'm just  glad that  I'm restricted to  MIPBs   otherwise  I think I would  bid  on the  whole  lot !

 Cheesy

Cheers  Peter

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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2012, 09:55:08 am »

Thanks George for sharing that,

I saw that too, Some superbe bottles,

here  are two my favorites

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPERBLY-PAINTED-CHINESE-SIGNED-IRON-RED-IMPERIAL-DRAGON-PORCELAIN-SNUFF-BOTTLE-/300662133955?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item4600dc14c3

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPERB-CHINESE-QING-DYNASTY-BLUE-WHITE-IMPERIAL-FIVE-CLAW-DRAGON-SNUFF-BOTTLE-/300662133856?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item4600dc1460

-Joey,

Any Comments on it?



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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2012, 11:24:05 am »

I do like the red iron bottles as well..

While first looking at these last night, my first impression was the same as yours.. Now this morning having a look through Joey's In Search Of A Dragon and not so sure..

I picked this one as my favorite porcelain from the lot.. Then realized after comparing Joey's bottles and referencing info, that at least this one ( my favorite ) is likely not old at all.  I am going to continure comparing a few more..

Another favorite is this most interesting overlay ( ? ) bottle..



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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2012, 11:30:00 am »

Nice lot, but in my opinion many of the bottles are contemporary (1960' to present).  A hidden treasure or two, but the one I suspect is late 1800's bottle is damaged.  Steven, though I’m not Joey,  the two bottles you referenced are common type bottles (nice), but I would not go 'hog wild' on price.

Charll
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 11:41:14 am by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2012, 02:39:07 pm »

Charll gets top points, Guys. Sorry. I just went through ALL 34 bottles.
ONE may be genuine and good - the Tongzhi marked gilt bronze (#4). Possibly a sleeper.
The Enamelled Glass (#13) looks like Ye Bengqi's enamelling but probably is 1980s-2010 Nice bottle.
#18, Blue & White porcelain, I had to look twice, but it is modern. I wasn't sure at first.
ALL THE REST ARE MODERN FAKES.
I'm not a great expert on Tongzhi metalwork but it looks right to me. If someone wants an example of enamelled Glass, and doesn't mind it is probably 1980s-2010, #13 is a very nice example.
Stay away from all the rest, if you trust my opinion.
 The  copper red is fired TOO WELL. They couldn't get it that good in the 18th/19th/early 20th C., whereas now, there are controls to the kilns that are exact to a degree. Thus, better firing colour.
Why no wear on the OVERGLAZE Iron red enamel examples? Because it is glazed OVER the external glaze, it tends to wear away, with rubbing in a pouch or in the hand. the Chinese DIDN'T display their snuffbottles in cases, where lack of contact would preserve the overglaze enamels. There should be wear from handling, and wear from the bottle being carried in a pouch on the body. Red and gold are the lowest fired colours, therefore the easiest to rub away. For some reason, red doesn't adhere as well to the clear glazed surface.
  My daddy, of blessed memory, used to say, "If it looks too good to be true, it usually is too good to be true".
Best, Shabbat Shalom, Joey
   
PS: I added a few comments to the post about the 34 bottles for sale WITHOUT RESERVES, explaining why I thought the porcelains were wrong. They are wrong because they are too good. When I look at my collection of porcelains, I notice the underglaze copper red NEVER fires as well as the example as on #  5, 20 and 24.
  Oh, and #16, the Ivory couple is not totally new - it is 1950s-1970s Kyoto work (Japanese).
Shabbat Shalom, Joey
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 05:58:12 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2012, 05:22:07 am »

Wow... nearly  all fakes

I would  never  have believed  it

Cheers  Peter
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2012, 09:11:16 am »

Thank you so much!!! Joey,

I learned a lot from your post, would you please explain a little bit on#12 and #11.

I will take some pics of my blue and white bottles, hope you can ID for me..
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 09:31:31 am by Steven » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2012, 09:54:46 am »

Dear Steven,
    I looked at #12 (the multicoloured glass gourd snuff bottle with coral branch stopper), and I can definitely say that the stopper is very nice! If the bottle is under US$20, and you need a stem-type stopper, well worth it. The bottle? It is of a type Mr. Yang was selling in the early 1970s, for US$30-45. I know - I bought one (but mine was a single gourd bottle - this has smaller gourds to the sides.)! Dating? 1950s- early 1970s (I bought mine in 1974 for US$30; sold it through Sotheby's Torquay UK as part of a lot of 16 snuffbottles in May, 1981 for US$750 for the whole lot).
   I was at the stage when I wanted an example of every type. I've since learned to appreciate ' subtle variations on a theme', which is how I describe traditional classical Chinese collecting style.
   The overlay glass on top, is actually applique - ie., applied as is to the bottle, while both the applique piece and the bottle are still hot enough and at the same temperature that the two glass parts will adhere one to the other. If they are not at the same temp., there is a chance the cooler one will crack. Once the piece is cool, it is wheel cut to add detail to the leaves and the foot (notice the crappy cuts to the leaves and  cross-hatching to the foot ...).
   Hope this helps.
   A Good Week to everyone, Joey
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 01:32:57 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2012, 12:43:09 pm »

All,

It is just my opinion that on bottles of this vintage we should move away from referring to them as ‘fakes’.  This lot has some nice bottles, but as discussed we just may not be willing to pay much for one.  And… they should not all be represented as old (ex., 19th century). Many of us have and do buy such bottles for various reasons.  When I acquire such a bottle I just label it ‘contemporary’.  Good quality contemporary bottle is just as desirable as good quality MIPB.

Charll
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2012, 12:47:28 pm »

All,

It is just my opinion that on bottles of this vintage we should move away from referring to them as ‘fakes’.  This lot has some nice bottles, but as discussed we just may not be willing to pay much for one.  And… they should not all be represented as old (ex., 19th century). Many of us have and do buy such bottles for various reasons.  When I acquire such a bottle I just label it ‘contemporary’.  Good quality contemporary bottle is just as desirable as good quality MIPB.

Charll

I agree Charll..

Fake is a poor term to use for these..
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2012, 01:38:13 pm »

I feel the majority of these bottles were purposely designed to fool new or unseasoned collectors, and are therefore fake, since they are being passed off as genuine top quality antique originals.
  HOWEVER, I've looked at them again, trying to see them as Charll and George see them; if I understand correctly, you see some of them as 'Good Quality Contemporary' bottles.
  It could be I'm ticked off by the seller describing them as "Qianlong Imperial", or "Daoguang Imperial", etc. The seller could be ignorant, or have been misled by the supplier.
  So, I've looked at them, NOT as genuine antiques, since they are not, but at the quality of the design, work, material, etc. From that perspective, I must admit, MOST are Good Quality Contemporary bottles.
  The following, though, I must repeat, are crap; even as modern examples, they're bad:
 # 7 (nothing good about it), 17 (the bottom and foot are badly done; stone, while not the usual, is nice), 27, 28, 29, 30, 33, & 34 (nothing good about them ). I still don't like #12, except for the classic 1970s YF Yang coral twig stopper.
   I hope this description is more acceptable. Best, Joey
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 01:39:52 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2012, 01:55:26 pm »

I understand and agree with you Joey..

The biggest disappointment is when a seller does label to an early period when in fact they are not.

I suppose one way to test the sellers knowledge, and or willingness to describe them properly would be to drop him a message. See if he changes the descriptions.

Your book helped me figure out that they are newer when comparing. One thing that stood out right away is how the scales are painted...

For me, even though I know the overlay on the bottle I posted above was certainly "blobbed" on, I still really like it.  

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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2012, 12:19:51 pm »

These bottles have an EXTREME number of watchers..

These are going to go through the roof.. !
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« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2012, 12:46:51 pm »

I have to give the seller credit and admire their approach on the listings.  By providing such detail and comparisons in the listings they are lulling in prospective buyers to think these bottles are more then what they really are.   Don’t get me wrong, the bottles may be worth what is being offered, but if they had the reported age as stated I would expect to see at least two things; some sort of abrasions from use and a duller finish on the porcelains.  It may just be the photography, but the porcelain bottles appear much too glossy and as Joey mentioned many of the colors appear off.   Kudos to the seller on the sales pitch.

The other thing that may be going on is that I’m just out of touch on pricing of middle of the road,  contemporary (last half of the 20th century), bottles!

Charll 
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2012, 02:15:50 pm »

I agree with Charll, Joey, and everyone who expressed doubt about these bottles.  The following will explain why I am sure that the more important bottles in this listing are fakes.  The following images are from a listing by the same seller that ended last week:





Now if you had a bowl that you suspected was authentic and you knew that one like it had been sold for $290 thousand in New York, would you be so foolish as to offer it on eBay for a starting price of $9.99 with NO RESERVE.  It wound up selling for $15,000, which would be a huge bargain if genuine.  The seller had some genuine things mixed in, which is the newest tactic for selling high caliber fakes.  If everything were fake, they would have a lot of negative feedback.  This way buyers will read the feedback and sometimes recognize the buyer’s ID of a knowledgeable buyer giving a positive feedback.  eBay has a whole bunch of sellers like that.
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Tom B.

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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2012, 06:26:38 pm »

The seller had some genuine things mixed in, which is the newest tactic for selling high caliber fakes.  If everything were fake, they would have a lot of negative feedback. 

Very true !

There are some great bottles mixed in this lot..

Like this overlay as just one example..

It was without a doubt carved from an old ingot / block.. At least that is what I read about when such heavily concentrated bubbles throughout are apparent and is a good indicator for guessing some age..

That, combined with the super deep carved ( cameo style ) overlay.  There are a few other really nice ones too.. Not to mention the bamboo ( blobbed ) one I picked out as a favorite in my original post.

So yes.. , the seller is no dummy.. The mixing of the few that are obviously antique can certainly tend to let a guy start to look at the entire lot as being antique.. Especially for a guy like myself who has real limited knowledge of porcelains. That seems to be the bulk of the fake bottles in this lot ..



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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2012, 07:05:13 pm »

This is another one that is a genuine late Qing Dynasty bottle circa 1900, but is decsribed as being Qianlong/Jaiqing or 100 years older than it really is.



A trusting newbie couldn't help but see that it has some age and then fall for the false description.
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Tom B.

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