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An Amazing Day in HK : Bloch part IV Auction

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Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« on: November 28, 2011, 10:08:18 am »

What  an   amazing  day  in HK   today

In the  morning  was the  Bloch  part IV   auction  - another  "golden  gavel"  day  for  Bonhams  =  total  sell-out

And  a  world  record  price    for an antique  suffbottle  :  Qianling/ Palace  workshop  (  #  38  in the   Bonhams  cataloge  which  you  can  access  on-line)  HK$ 27  Million  +  commisson =   US$3.5  Million

Amazing   !   ( But  actually, in my  opinion, a very  ugly  bottle  )

Meanwhile,  there   was a  follow-on  afternoon   auction   which  included     about   100   snuff bottles   from other  collectors, mostly  antiques  (  1800's)     which      either  went  for    dirt- cheap  prices (  US$  1- 2  K)   or    did  not  even meet  the    reserve  price.  A  beautiful  Yan  Yutian    went  for   HK$11K  =  US$1.5K   and I picked  up  a   superb  2001   Liu  Shouben  "100  Children"   for  only  US$4K  including the   25%  commission. 

I just  hope  it's  genuine, but  I can  easily check that  with  Jill and   her  hsuband Li Hui, because  Li Hui  is   Liu Shouben's  ex- student.  So  if  genuine,  I   think I could  get  Li  Shouben  to   certify  it   ( via  Li Hui)

Let's  see........  if  I  bought a   certified  dud  I wonder  if  I can  ask  Bonhams  to  take  it  back  ?   

This  could  be a very  important   part  of  my  learning  experience

Cheers   Peter




 
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George
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2011, 10:48:21 am »

What a fun day !

If a person wanted to certify a bottle, how is that done ? Simply send it off to someone, or are there specific people ?
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2011, 05:54:01 pm »

Hi George

Yes  a  fun day.  It's  really  exciting  to    be present  at a   super-auction  which sets   world  record  prices.  The  bidding time  for the    world  record priced  bottle   lasted   about 10  +  minutes  ( compared to   1  minute  for  other  bottles)  because the    winner  was  on a  phone  bid  link  via  one of a   big  panel  of  a  dozen   Bonhams   handling  phone bids, so there  were  constant  delays  as  the  phone bidder tried to  keep  up  with  a   counter- bidder  from the    floor  close to me.

And the   auctioneer   had  real  panache , and  kept  everyone  laughing  as  he  kept  the bidding  open as  long as  reasonably  possible  to give  all parties  time to   consider

I  think  ( guess) the  winner  was a well-known and very  rich   HK   art collector,  who  also  bid  in person  previously . If  I am  correct ,  this  guy  just  likes the  " best  of the  best"  regardless of  what  art form.  He  is  not  a  true  100%   snuff bottle  afficiado

Re   certifying  bottles  :  if  it's an  antique bottle, the  only  way  is a  reputed  authority   eg  Ian Hardy  for   real  Middle  period  or  Jill  /  Li  Hui   for  bottles  by  - say  -  Ye  Zhong Shan ( but   even so, it's  just an  opinion)

Hugh Moss  personally   validated  every bottle  in the  Bloch  collection  so    all their   provenances  are  "assured", because  Hugh's  word  is  FINAL  on these  matters, thus  the  high  prices

For a  current  artist, the  only real  way    is  to   go to the   artist  direct and  ask  him to  sign  on the   dotted  line,   which  is  what  I will  do  with  my  Liu Shouben  :  I  will  take the  bottle to  BJ  next  trip and  ask  Li Hui to   show  it  to  Liu Shou Ben and  sign  for  it . (  HOPE  it's  genuine ! )  

If   buying  from  a  REAL / SERIOUS   collector  , eg  me,    who can   put  his  hand  on  his  heart  and  swear  that  he/ she  bought  this  or  that  bottle  from   Artist  X  on so-and-so date,  for such-and-such  price,  that's also   sufficient  provenance if the   declaration  is  signed  and  the   collector  is  internatioanally  recognized by peers.

Thus  :  if  I bought  ANY  bottle  from  Bill  , or  David  Osborne,  I   regard  their   word  as  "gospel   truth"   re  provenance, because  both  those  guys  only ever  bought   direct  from  artists. (or  - very  - occasionally  -  totally   trustworthy  intermediaries   eg  Wang  Xi San )

I now immediately   document  every  bottle  I  buy  in  detail,  with  a  record  how  / when/  where  bought  plus  price  and  a   snap-shopt  of the  bottle , all on one  page . The  process   ( format) by  which I do this  has  evolved  over the  past  5  years, and  as  soon as  I retire  next  year  I  will   re-do  the  provenance  of  every  bottle in  my collection  in a  much more  professional  format   ( details  of  which I  will  post  on  this  Forum  for    use/ advice  to other  collectors , if they  wish to   use the  same   technique)

I also   keep a  hard  copy  of  every   document  and  attach  originals  of  any  supporting   info   eg  receipts

Cheers   Peter

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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 01:01:40 pm »

Thanks Peter for sharing the experience! and I am truly admring you the way you recorded your bottles. I sure will do the same thing when my little collection grown one day-:)

How were the procelain bottles? any big price go for the procelain bottles?

Steven
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 04:21:16 pm »

Hi Steven

Sorry  -  I left  as  soon as the  glass  bottle  auction  was  finished

But  in any case, I  have no idea  about  porcelain  bottles

Re  documenting your  collection  : I  do advise to  write   down   everything  relevant  about  how/ where/  when  you  bought the  bottle   and the  price  on one page,   then  place  the bottle  on the  page and   take a  digital  pic.

Otherwise  you   will  very soon forget  the   details

( That's a   quick  and  easy  way to   do it .  You can   tidy it  up later eg  type  it, add  bottle  dimensions  or  length scale etc )

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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 04:28:55 pm »

Something esle I have started saving to my computer, but have not actually added yet to each bottles info is auction results for other bottles that are really similar to the one in my collection..

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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 04:49:10 pm »

Hi George

Yes  - that's  really useful  info  ( although a lot  of extra   work)

Cheers  Peter
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2011, 12:22:24 pm »

I'm sure this was a great experience although sometimes it makes one wonder if they know anything about snuff bottles and their value at all.

As far as validating who the painter of a bottle was ... I once bought a bottle at auction from an auction house you would all recognize. It was advertised as a Wang Guanyu bottle. Before I bought it I asked Wang Guanyu if he painted it. He told me that he did not and told me who did paint it. Later I stumbled into the person who had sold this bottle through the auction house. I asked him how it was determined who painted the bottle. He told me that the bottle had been appraised by auction houses x and y, two other names you would also know and that they had determined the artist.

So much for the experts. They may know YZS, MSX, etc but I would not give any credibility to determining authenticity of painters after 1960. For that, go to a good Chinese source. Even then it is not always certain.

Bill
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2011, 12:01:37 am »

Fully agreed... I am not so high on these self-appointed experts and auction houses as I mentioned several times before.  I know I ruffle some feathers by saying that, but I have several similar experiences as you do.  No more for me.  Amen. 
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Pat
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