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Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles

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George
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« on: November 03, 2011, 02:02:45 am »

I think this is just another example of this forum needing to experience some change, and adjust a bit once again..  Wink

Changes that will hopefully result in making some collectors more at ease towards sharing their knowledge and expertise among other avid collectors. Collectors that at this point I am suspecting are not be willing to do so on a forum viewable to the public.

As an example, some present members have been posting some valuable.., and well.., important information specifically related to student artists, and possible pen/art name associations.

There is also some very valuable information related to Early, Middle, and Modern Period IP bottles. 

These boards would be accessable only to "Actively Participating" members with an interest ( novice or expert ) about any Period IP bottles. A collector does not have to be an IP bottle expert by any means to join in this part of the forum. Otherwise, I would have to exclude myself right off the bat !  Cheesy

I want to block three boards from the public. 

1) IP Artists of the Very Modern Period ( 1990 to Present )
2) Facts We Learn About Pen Names Verses Actual Artists Names
3) Inside Painted Bottles / Early, Middle and Modern Period Bottles

I am not totally convinced doing this will bring some of the forums valued collectors back on board, and or bring some new collectors to the forum, but am very curious to see if it might.

If I am on track with this thinking, then member pariticipation/replies about this will be a contributing factor in deciding if this is a good idea ..

I could be way off base, so going to leave this open for replies to see if anyone is interested in commenting.

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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 03:40:00 am »

George

You are not off base, and you and I have had several discussions about this.  I DO believe there is not enough contribution from others, AND I have gotten very hesitant about posting new information.  Also as you know, I have had my own policy of no longer posting pictures of items off my own collection.  I am and was just no longer comfortable about the web crawlers and lurkers but within and outside this forum.

I am sorry, I do not mean to offend anyone, but indeed the information being shared in the categories that you referred to is indeed valuable and important, and is built up from our collections, and discussions with many others, dealers, artists, etc.  This information is often not even available anywhere else, not in books and not on the web.  IF it were available the books and databases would be/could very expensive and difficult to obtain.  As such I fully agree and am a staunch and fervent supporters of this change!

Finally, I wholeheartedly agree that IF forum members seek access to the private sections, they should be monitored for their contributions and participation.  In other words, be a real part of the group or leave...Sorry.

Thanks!
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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 08:47:47 am »

Hi George, Pat  ( and anyone else  in on this  discussion)

Personally  I vote to keep the   whole  Forum  open   just as it is .

If it  ain't  broke   - don't   fix  it 

Participants   will   only share  what they   are willing to   share  openl, and  I think that  the  more  that is  shared  openly the better 

eg  I  have offered  my  data base  free of  charge  to any serious  collector and so   far  I  have  sent  out  about  10 copies worldwide on memory  sticks     ( but so far,  to my  disappointment,   no-one  has  sent me  pics  of  their  collections in return to add the the  DB , the  sole  exception  being Bill Patrick who has  put his entire  collection  on the   www in  a  beautiful  format, which is  why  I respect Bill  so much) 

It   takes  a lot  of  research to  untangle  all the  alternate pen names   so every  contribution  is useful , and I  created  my  DB  with the  sole objective  of  helping  new  collectors   find  their  way through the  MIPB  jungle

Things  are  made  even more  complicated  (  if  that's even possible)  by the facts  that :

a) many   Modern  IPB  artists  seem to   explode into life  , bloom for  a  very few years,  and then  vanish  completely, so every  collection   starting   with  J. H . Leung's,  then  Bill's,  then  Pat's, then mine ( as just a  typical   sample  over   30 years , just mentioning the  collectors  I know  well  or  - in the case of  J. H Leung -  know  of)   is just a  snapshot  of the   bottles    created   during  the  collector's  most enthusiastic   period  of collecting

b) some  MIPB  collectors  are  very  secretive and  never share  their  collections.  I know one  such collector  in HK  of this  kind . Such   collectors   have the right to  their  total   privacy .

c) some  older    MIPB  artists   seem to  get a  second  wind and  start  producing  THE most amazing work  late  in life  ( eg  Fu Guo Shun) so  one can never   write  off  an older  artist.   But   on the other hand ,  other  well-known  MIPB artists    just go  stale and   turn out  increasingly  boring  work   with almost  zero  artistic  merit

d)   some  older artists   even  let their   students  paint  bottles, then the senior  artist   signs  his name.  (At  the  Wang Xisan  Beijing  Museum opening  I had  some long  conversations  with the  Singapore  collectors  who had  ardently been collecting the   latest   works  of  one  very  senior  artist,  only to find that   when they got together and  added  up the  number of bottles  they had all  bought each  year,  they realized there  was  NO possible  way that   senior  artist  could have painted  so many  bottles ergo  he  had been signing on his  students'  bottles .....  ugh !)

So I vote  to keep the   Forum as  it  is.  After all it's just early days  !

And if  there  are  some matters   we  prefer to  keep private, we can  easily  go off-line and  use  private email, as  you know  I  frequently  have  done on matters   which I   don't  like to  share  openly

Well... that's my    10 cents   worth

Cheers   Peter

PS :  Sorry I have  not been active  of  late.   I  have  had a lot  to  do  at  work  these past months, and I need my salary to  support  my  bottle-buying habit .    But I have  in the  meantime   picked up  some  AMAZING  bottles, including  some   from  Jill ( Guo Jie)'s   latest    catalogue  by  virtue  of  going to  her  BJ  shop  before the  catalogue was even  published and   snapping  up  the  bottles   which I  loved the  most   ( Beware : no matter  how  much effort   goes  into  preparing  a  catalogue - and  Jill's   2011   catalogue  is  her best ever / superbly  produced  -   some bottles  look  much better in real life  than  any    catalogue  photograph,  and  similarly  some bottles  look  much  worse  in real life  than  in a   catalogue/  photo/ jpg  . As an  example  -  I bought one bottle   from Jill  this  year   that   the  artist  himself  had  offered  me   2  years  earlier,   but I declined   at the  time, even though  he  sent me a  very  hi-Q  jpg )

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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 08:56:55 am »

it is broke... and it needs to be fixed. there are 2-3 people talking and contributing here for the world, the lurkers, the crawlers, and everyone else.  if that is your idea for 'not broke' ok... but then it can be 'not broke' without me.  that is fine by me.  no more for me unless it changes.  no fixin' needed...

PS. no need to go offline and try to convince me.  i want everyone to see this exchange
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 09:09:05 am »



If I am on track with this thinking, then member pariticipation/replies about this will be a contributing factor in deciding if this is a good idea ..

I could be way off base, so going to leave this open for replies to see if anyone is interested in commenting.



Remember... I am interested in, and look forward to everyones comments.

We don't have to agree just yet, but really do want everyone to be comfortable with sharing how they feel..

There are valid points to both sides of this. 

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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 09:20:36 am »

I agree with you George but until this gets resolved, I am removing all my posts relating to my own collection.  And Peter, for your info, YOUR collection is also not on YOUR database for the very same reason as some of the rest of us: time, quality, methods, etc... I promised you that if and when I have the pics you will have them for the DB, and I intend to stick to that.

PS.  I have seen some of my pics (which i removed from the gallery) appear online in for sale ads.  Maybe some of you don't mind, but clearly I do.
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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2011, 09:20:47 am »

Pat, George    et al

I stick  with my  view  :  It   ain't   broke  so don't  fix  it

These  are  very  early days  indeed  (  barely a  year  since the   Forum was   set up by  George, if I am not mistaken)  and   personally  I think it's the  best  thing  since   sliced  bread, even though  far  from  perfect

I  am  close to  retirement  and  preparing  a hand-over  package  to my  successor.  When I review  my  business  performance  over the  past  25  years  I am  horrified  at  what  a  total   asshole  I was  in my early   days  and  astonished  that  I kept  my  job  ( in fact  I'm the  only   manager   still  surviving  from that  mid  1980's  era , by  many  years : all the  other managers  of   that  era   were  obviously  bigger  assholes  because  they  were   fired  ages  ago, as were  their successors, and their  successors's  successors  )

But  I persisted  ( and   adapted, and  learnt as  I went along)

So  I say  , George,   GO FOR  IT .   For  every  member  who  opts  out,   two more  will eventually come  in .

I'm  certainly  IN  for   the  good, the   bad  and the  ugly

 Cheesy

Cheers   Peter

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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 09:33:15 am »

Hi Pat

Really  - bottles  which  you  posted  pics  of  have been on sale   by others?   How  can  that  be unless   someone  has  very  cleverly  copied  them ? 

True  - my own  collection  is  not  in my  DB,  but  only because   when I  do  get  round to   photographing  my collection  I want to do it  properly,  which I think is a   3  month  full - time  job   after  I retire. ( I have  taken  over   1,000  test  shots  of  a     range of   different  bottles   so far to try and  optimise my  technique) 

Likewise  :  I  intend to   catalogue  every bottle  properly   with  details  of  when/ where/ price  bought  and  current   estimated  value ( but that   will  not  go into the   open  DB)

Cheers     Peter  ( off to bed  )


 

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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2011, 09:42:42 am »

I agree with you George but until this gets resolved, I am removing all my posts relating to my own collection. 

Might be easier to hold off a bit.

If we create a private member area, I can easily move any posts you want off the public forum and into that private area.

Will leave it up to you..
 

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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2011, 09:50:54 am »

Peter

Get real. This is the virtual world.  People will take pics from anyone and from anywhere to sell to anyone.  They don't copy the bottle, they just want a quick buck and run off by using the pics as bait, if and when they can get away with it.  My advice.... watermark every pic that you post online anywhere. 

On the pics of 'our' collections, we are obviously in agreement and under the same or similar constraints.
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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2011, 09:53:56 am »

Tell ya what guys..

Am going to set up a private area.. You will see it, but it will not be active.

It is the easiest way to me to wrap my head around how to best make it work. Just sort of play with it for a bit and see just exactly what feels right and what does not.

So hang in there, and let me see what or rather how to organize things a bit so everyone is comfortable with posting what ever they are willing to share. Be that for the public to view, or in private to be shared with certain members allowed in..

Not sure where this is going just yet, but no harm in tyring to sort it out..

Still looking for comments from other members  Wink
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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2011, 10:16:29 am »

Hi All

I  suggest  we   cool  off  a  couple  of   days

Sure  - a  private  area  for    hi -res picture postings  makes a lot of  sense

If  anyone  wants to  put  a  pic  on the  public  area  he  can do it  at  low- res  and/or  with  a watermark  embedded

But  I  think  open  discussion / info- sharing  should  remain public

Cheers   Peter

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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2011, 10:21:41 am »

Hi George, Pat  ( and anyone else  in on this  discussion)

Personally  I vote to keep the   whole  Forum  open   just as it is .

If it  ain't  broke   - don't   fix  it 

Participants   will   only share  what they   are willing to   share  openl, and  I think that  the  more  that is  shared  openly the better 

eg  I  have offered  my  data base  free of  charge  to any serious  collector and so   far  I  have  sent  out  about  10 copies worldwide on memory  sticks     ( but so far,  to my  disappointment,   no-one  has  sent me  pics  of  their  collections in return to add the the  DB , the  sole  exception  being Bill Patrick who has  put his entire  collection  on the   www in  a  beautiful  format, which is  why  I respect Bill  so much) 

It   takes  a lot  of  research to  untangle  all the  alternate pen names   so every  contribution  is useful , and I  created  my  DB  with the  sole objective  of  helping  new  collectors   find  their  way through the  MIPB  jungle

Things  are  made  even more  complicated  (  if  that's even possible)  by the facts  that :

a) many   Modern  IPB  artists  seem to   explode into life  , bloom for  a  very few years,  and then  vanish  completely, so every  collection   starting   with  J. H . Leung's,  then  Bill's,  then  Pat's, then mine ( as just a  typical   sample  over   30 years , just mentioning the  collectors  I know  well  or  - in the case of  J. H Leung -  know  of)   is just a  snapshot  of the   bottles    created   during  the  collector's  most enthusiastic   period  of collecting

b) some  MIPB  collectors  are  very  secretive and  never share  their  collections.  I know one  such collector  in HK  of this  kind . Such   collectors   have the right to  their  total   privacy .

c) some  older    MIPB  artists   seem to  get a  second  wind and  start  producing  THE most amazing work  late  in life  ( eg  Fu Guo Shun) so  one can never   write  off  an older  artist.   But   on the other hand ,  other  well-known  MIPB artists    just go  stale and   turn out  increasingly  boring  work   with almost  zero  artistic  merit

d)   some  older artists   even  let their   students  paint  bottles, then the senior  artist   signs  his name.  (At  the  Wang Xisan  Beijing  Museum opening  I had  some long  conversations  with the  Singapore  collectors  who had  ardently been collecting the   latest   works  of  one  very  senior  artist,  only to find that   when they got together and  added  up the  number of bottles  they had all  bought each  year,  they realized there  was  NO possible  way that   senior  artist  could have painted  so many  bottles ergo  he  had been signing on his  students'  bottles .....  ugh !)

So I vote  to keep the   Forum as  it  is.  After all it's just early days  !

And if  there  are  some matters   we  prefer to  keep private, we can  easily  go off-line and  use  private email, as  you know  I  frequently  have  done on matters   which I   don't  like to  share  openly

Well... that's my    10 cents   worth

Cheers   Peter

PS :  Sorry I have  not been active  of  late.   I  have  had a lot  to  do  at  work  these past months, and I need my salary to  support  my  bottle-buying habit .    But I have  in the  meantime   picked up  some  AMAZING  bottles, including  some   from  Jill ( Guo Jie)'s   latest    catalogue  by  virtue  of  going to  her  BJ  shop  before the  catalogue was even  published and   snapping  up  the  bottles   which I  loved the  most   ( Beware : no matter  how  much effort   goes  into  preparing  a  catalogue - and  Jill's   2011   catalogue  is  her best ever / superbly  produced  -   some bottles  look  much better in real life  than  any    catalogue  photograph,  and  similarly  some bottles  look  much  worse  in real life  than  in a   catalogue/  photo/ jpg  . As an  example  -  I bought one bottle   from Jill  this  year   that   the  artist  himself  had  offered  me   2  years  earlier,   but I declined   at the  time, even though  he  sent me a  very  hi-Q  jpg )



Hi Peter,
As one of the recipients of your superb memory stick data bases, I would like to take his opportunity of thanking you once again but this time on this forum for that great piece of work.
As you know I did send you pictures of my very limited collection of IPS's but I am sorry to hear that others let you down by not doing so. It really is a wonderful piece of work, on which you must have dedicated an enormous amount of time and I feel my limited knowledge on the subject and your input regarding my own bottles has been vastly enriched by your input.
So thanks again!
John.
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« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2011, 10:32:44 am »



I  suggest  we   cool  off  a  couple  of   days



Sounds good to me too..  Smiley

I'm off to bed.. Been up to long..
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« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2011, 03:21:38 pm »

Sorry guys for coming on board of this discussion so late, last couple of weeks have been crazy.

Personally I agreed with Peter to leave the forum as it was.  My personal experience was that I accidentally stumbled into this place and found a sea worth of information and a group of enthusiasts.  That is the motivation for me to post and share information.  I think it is important for us to dissimulate as much information as possible to the general public, especially for the newer artists.  We do want more people to know about the works we collect, good for the value department, right?  Wink  For the older artists, I think most information about them is out there somewhere.  Most of the discussions are probably related to authentication of their works.  Again, I think the liver the discussion the better. 

Just my two cents as a relatively newcomer.
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« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2011, 06:53:31 pm »

Thanks Walter.. , and nice to see you !  Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2011, 08:22:23 pm »

John,

Sorry  -  I forgot  that  you  did   indeed  send me  good  pics  and that was very  decent  of  you

Also  Walter  :  you  did likewise , for which many thanks  indeed 

I am  second  guessing   when  I say the     following  : I get the  feeling  you  are  at the  stage  in your  collecting where  you  have  a  couple  of   dozen  beautiful bottles  and  your  collection  has   stayed  at that  level  for the  past   couple  of  years,  just  as  I  was  in  2006 - 2008   ( and the  same  with collecting  matchboxes  in my infant  years) .  But then   suddenly the   collecting   bug  will  attack  you  and    a  couple  of   dozen  grows  to   a  couple  of  hundred   as  you  develop a  taste  for   certain  styles   and   artists  .  At least  that's what happened  with me !  Beware !

Everyone  :  please   don't   think I  begrudge  sharing  my  DB  with    very little   feedback  - in fact  just the  opposite.

I created  the  DB as a  way to   "spread the   word"  and   the more   copies that are  circulated  gratis the  better. When I  retire   and if  I ever have the   time,   and if  Bill  agrees, we  will  put the  whole  thing  on line  forever  on Bill's  website  in  a  secure   server  so it will  never be  lost 

But  having the   DB  on  line  vs    in one's  hard  disc  are  two  completely different  matters  until    roaming  download speeds increase .   Time and  time  again I'm in a  shop  or  talking with an  artist and  want to pull  up  a  pic  instantly  from my  lap top , which I can  easily  do   from my  DB .  But  not so easy  on-line  when a   3  MB  pic   takes  a  couple of  minutes  to  download, and one   wants to scan  a  dozen  such  pics  to  find the  right one

The   DB  is  currently  7  GB  (  it takes  my  super-fast   lap top  several  seconds  just to count the   files) and by the time  I  finish  it  will  be    15  -  20  GB  .  I  will issue the  next  major  update  in  late   2013

BTW  :   in the  course  of  my time  I have  put  out  many  feelers  / hooks.  Every  so often  one  catches a  big  fish   eg

a)  yesterday   I got an email   totally   out of the  blue from a painter   called  Zhang  Lei  ( CIPMA  260/261) .  I  met this guy  in 2010  at a dinner   with   Wang Guanyu in Heng Shui, but  did  not  realise that   WGY is  his  UNCLE !   He  is based  in SH and   holds  exhibitions   about  once  per  year   with  full  cataloge.  Next week  I am in SH  so  I will   surely find  time to  meet  him

b)  I  have  had  a  very  sporadic  correspondence   with  a   French  dealer  in  antique  IPBs  called  Laurence  Souksi. Suddenly  he    sends me an  email   just after   returning  from the   ICSBS   convention  in Palm  Beach  with a  load  of  useful  feedback and  network info  ( and he   may soon join the   Forum) 

This   Forum is  all   about  NETWORKING .  That's  why it's so great  , despite  some   teething problems.    Once one   starts to  network  : magic  things  happen - meeting  people  on-line  like Pat, Richy, Walter, John,  and of course  George

Our  company    has a  CRM  system  that is  so complicated   ( it  was designed  by GERMANS   for  GERMANS)  , not to  metion hideously  expensive  ( several  hundred  thousand  US$)   that  no-one  ever  uses  it   except  a  couple  of   Germans: in fact  we  all  hate  it.     If  only   we had  set   up  something as   simple as  George has   done  we  would  all network  far much more

Cheers   Peter



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« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2011, 10:44:15 pm »

John,

Sorry  -  I forgot  that  you  did   indeed  send me  good  pics  and that was very  decent  of  you

Also  Walter  :  you  did likewise , for which many thanks  indeed 

I am  second  guessing   when  I say the     following  : I get the  feeling  you  are  at the  stage  in your  collecting where  you  have  a  couple  of   dozen  beautiful bottles  and  your  collection  has   stayed  at that  level  for the  past   couple  of  years,  just  as  I  was  in  2006 - 2008   ( and the  same  with collecting  matchboxes  in my infant  years) .  But then   suddenly the   collecting   bug  will  attack  you  and    a  couple  of   dozen  grows  to   a  couple  of  hundred   as  you  develop a  taste  for   certain  styles   and   artists  .  At least  that's what happened  with me !  Beware !

Everyone  :  please   don't   think I  begrudge  sharing  my  DB  with    very little   feedback  - in fact  just the  opposite.

I created  the  DB as a  way to   "spread the   word"  and   the more   copies that are  circulated  gratis the  better. When I  retire   and if  I ever have the   time,   and if  Bill  agrees, we  will  put the  whole  thing  on line  forever  on Bill's  website  in  a  secure   server  so it will  never be  lost 

But  having the   DB  on  line  vs    in one's  hard  disc  are  two  completely different  matters  until    roaming  download speeds increase .   Time and  time  again I'm in a  shop  or  talking with an  artist and  want to pull  up  a  pic  instantly  from my  lap top , which I can  easily  do   from my  DB .  But  not so easy  on-line  when a   3  MB  pic   takes  a  couple of  minutes  to  download, and one   wants to scan  a  dozen  such  pics  to  find the  right one

The   DB  is  currently  7  GB  (  it takes  my  super-fast   lap top  several  seconds  just to count the   files) and by the time  I  finish  it  will  be    15  -  20  GB  .  I  will issue the  next  major  update  in  late   2013

BTW  :   in the  course  of  my time  I have  put  out  many  feelers  / hooks.  Every  so often  one  catches a  big  fish   eg

a)  yesterday   I got an email   totally   out of the  blue from a painter   called  Zhang  Lei  ( CIPMA  260/261) .  I  met this guy  in 2010  at a dinner   with   Wang Guanyu in Heng Shui, but  did  not  realise that   WGY is  his  UNCLE !   He  is based  in SH and   holds  exhibitions   about  once  per  year   with  full  cataloge.  Next week  I am in SH  so  I will   surely find  time to  meet  him

b)  I  have  had  a  very  sporadic  correspondence   with  a   French  dealer  in  antique  IPBs  called  Laurence  Souksi. Suddenly  he    sends me an  email   just after   returning  from the   ICSBS   convention  in Palm  Beach  with a  load  of  useful  feedback and  network info  ( and he   may soon join the   Forum) 

This   Forum is  all   about  NETWORKING .  That's  why it's so great  , despite  some   teething problems.    Once one   starts to  network  : magic  things  happen - meeting  people  on-line  like Pat, Richy, Walter, John,  and of course  George

Our  company    has a  CRM  system  that is  so complicated   ( it  was designed  by GERMANS   for  GERMANS)  , not to  metion hideously  expensive  ( several  hundred  thousand  US$)   that  no-one  ever  uses  it   except  a  couple  of   Germans: in fact  we  all  hate  it.     If  only   we had  set   up  something as   simple as  George has   done  we  would  all network  far much more

Cheers   Peter





Hi Peter,
In fact my initial purchase of IPS's in the mid 90's were my first bottles. I then started collecting non inside painted bottles, which now make up by far the largest part of my collection. A couple of my non inside painted have been posted on here.
Cheers,
John.
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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2012, 03:32:27 pm »

Peter,
   Laurance Souksi is a lady of the female persuasion, Peter. She's very nice; I bought a wonderful Fuzhou lacquer snuff bottle from her a few years ago, when we were both at an Asian Antiques and Arts Fair in Brussels (June 2006, if I remember correctly).
  Best to all, Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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