My first carved glass snuff bottle

[albert]

Dear forum colleagues,

I'm very happy because got a new item for my collection. It is a modern carved glass snuff bottle. I took it because always, when I see an glass carved snuff bottle on the antiques shops, I never feel well tring to know how I can see if the bottle is old or new. by this reason, I bought it for study.

Now having it, I'm amazed, it is very well made! and now I am completely confused to differentiate an old bottle from a modern one !!

Best,
Albert

[albert]

 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Albert,
 
       Congratulations! It looks like a very nice modern overlay glass bottle.
One easy way to see the difference between antique and modern examples, is that
the modern artists go overboard, and incise & carve all the surface of the colour layer.
The background surface is usually left plain but should be as mirror-smooth as possible.

By and large, in an overlay bottle from the 17th, 18th and 19th C., the overlaid layer is carved but not incised with detail, with exceptions like a dragon's or fish's scales. And that is done very delicately.
Look at your bats; they are quite ornately carved, in my opinion.

    But it is a very nice modern example. Modern enameled Porcelains also tend to be over the top in decoration, displaying much more ornate and colourful enameling and shapes than are seen in 18th-19th C. examples.
Best,
Joey

[albert]

 Dear Joey,

Thank for you explanation, but I can not understand what you want to say in this part:
"the modern artists go overboard, and incise & carve all the surface of the colour layer". Because, in this modern bottle, I'm watching that the color layer is completly carved in some parts, but just a bit carved in other parts. 
Which I can see is that the white layer is not well polished.

Best,
Albert

[forestman]

Hi Albert,

If you compare the amount of detail of the tree trunk in your bottle to the picture below it might demonstrate the point Joey is making in modern carvers giving more detail than is needed.

I don't have an example of bats to show but on older bottles they are simplified to a basic shape with little detail whereas on your bottle more detail than is really needed to suggest a bat has been carved.

There is also a depth to the carving in the picture I have added that isn't there on your bottle and tends to be lacking on modern bottles.

Once you start handling genuine old bottles you see the differences more easily so try and view bottles at a good auction if possible, far cheaper than buying them and it means you will be better able to recognise genuine bottles that may come up at affordable prices.

If you make a point of searching for snuff bottles on ebay it will help. The vast majority of bottles being sold from China will be new, look at the stoppers and spoons on these bottles as they are very similar as there seem to be few manufacturers of them. Genuine old bottles attract high bids so put them on a watch list and see what they sell for and get used to looking at bottles in detail.

You can buy middle quality old overlay bottles fairly cheaply if you have time to look but there is nothing wrong with having a good quality modern bottle like yours.

Regards, Adrian.



 

[Rube]

Albert,

Congratulations on your bottle!  I find overlay bottles to be beautiful, and I look at a lot of bottles from this genre.  Having said that, I still have a hard time distinguishing old from new.  Let me add a few bottles, and hopefully members will comment on their age range?  And may their comparison help us both in our studies...

The first is a red overlay dragon on snowflake glass which measures 2 5/16" w/o agate stopper.  It has a convex foot resting on an oval foot rim, exhibits thin, but not very good carving, and some wear.  I'm hoping this is from the late 19th century?

The second is a red overlay of fo dogs on snowflake glass, measuring 2 9/16" w/o its blue glass stopper.  It also has a convex foot resting on a deeper oval foot rim, but exhibiting much wear but a greater level of detailed carving.  I'm also hoping this is later 19th century, but anxious to hear comments.

Cheers,

Rube.

[albert]

Dear Adrian,
Thanks for your contribution on help me, you explanation and pic are very good.
I will take in account your advices when I revise the books and auctions, in order to continue learning. 

Dear Rube,
Thanks for attach the pictures of your bottles on this topic, we can learn toghether, from the opinion of more esxpert members of the forum.

Best Albert.

[albert]

On the other hand, I want to show a picture of the bottom of my bottle, because I saw that it is different that your posted bottles. Are you thinking that it could be a good thing to start to know the age of the bottle?

I continue to be impressed with the quality of work in my bottle 

Best,
Albert.

[forestman]

Hi Rube,

There's Joey and I trying to tell Albert that older bottles don't tend to be over carved with detail and you post your second bottle 

I think both your bottles could be late 19th Century, maybe earlier, especially the second which is very detailed in it's carving.


Regards, Adrian.

[Rube]

Albert,

Both Adrian's and Joey's comments are informative.  I think one important word that Joey mentions about carvings on older vs. modern bottles is "delicately".  I wouldn't call the carving on your bottle delicate but rather monotone, like it was done with a rotary tool, given that the carved lines are somewhat thick. Also, on the photo of the base of your bottle, it's hard to tell, but it appears that there are rotary tool marks on the foot. 

Adrian,

Thanks for commenting on the two bottles I posted.  I hope you're right!

Cheers,

Rube.

[forestman]

Hi Rube,

I think the term "delicately" describes the difference between old and new better.

It is probably due to the old bottles being produced by artists and the new bottles being produced by lesser artists who are simply copying the older artists without being able to add the delicacy.

There are some new bottles being produced by true artists but they are hard to find.

Here's an example of a overlay that confuses me which is from the latest auction catalogue I bought, Eric Young Part 3, described by Sotheby's as "A very fine double overlay glass Snuff bottle, 1800-1880." It looks like a relatively new bottle to me but not having it in hand won't help.

Regards, Adrian

[Rube]

Adrian,

Interesting that the deer has the same star markings as one of your past bottles you shared.

Cheers,

Rube.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Guys, I'm writing this at 04:40am, so please bear with me...
[I fell asleep before doing my evening prayers, and then woke up about 40 min. ago - luckily still in time for my 'evening prayers' {till first light}].

Dear Albert,
    I would have tried to explain as well as Adrian did, but am not sure I'd have been as clear. And re. bases: the two bases Rube posted look 'right' for 19th C. examples. Yours looks ca. 1990 - a few months before you bought your bottle [ie., to 2017].
Thank you, Adrian.

Dear Rube,
    I agree with Adrian about your first red overlay being 19th C. - I would have said ca. 1820-1880; and probably the second as well, but I'm not 100% sure the second one isn't more modern. But both bases look 'right'.

Dear Adrian,
    Great explanation! Thank you.

Best to all,
Joey

   

Hi Rube,

There's Joey and I trying to tell Albert that older bottles don't tend to be over carved with detail and you post your second bottle 

I think both your bottles could be late 19th Century, maybe earlier, especially the second which is very detailed in it's carving.


Regards, Adrian.

[Rube]

Joey,

Thanks for your input.  Hopefully the base on the second one disqualifies it for being modern, like 1970-.  Though the carving is detailed, the bottle does show lots of abrasion.

Cheers,

Rube.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Adrian,
 
     I bid on this bottle in Eric Young III, but dropped out way before the end. It is a superb bottle, and my dating was ca.1780-1840.
I love the bottle.
Sadly, my bank acct didn't at that point in time...
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Hi Rube,

I think the term "delicately" describes the difference between old and new better.

It is probably due to the old bottles being produced by artists and the new bottles being produced by lesser artists who are simply copying the older artists without being able to add the delicacy.

There are some new bottles being produced by true artists but they are hard to find.

Here's an example of a overlay that confuses me which is from the latest auction catalogue I bought, Eric Young Part 3, described by Sotheby's as "A very fine double overlay glass Snuff bottle, 1800-1880." It looks like a relatively new bottle to me but not having it in hand won't help.

Regards, Adrian

[forestman]

Dear Joey,

I will try and find the bottle on Sotheby's site so I can see better pictures of it.

Regards, Adrian.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Adrian,

    It is a really great example. At the moment, the Chinese buyers are not interested in glass bottles. This and other examples might be cheaper for the moment...
Best,
Joey

[forestman]

Dear Joey,

Do you have an opinion on how flat the very bottom of the footrims are on Rube's second bottle and my auspicious objects bottle in terms of dating them.

I see flat footrims on newer overlay bottles as well as older ones but it seems more normal to expect a rounded footrim on older bottles.

Regards, Adrian.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Rube,

      The problem is that one 'positive' proof does not prove the bottle is 'right'; while one 'negative' proof DOES prove it is not 'right'.
Someone trying to fake an early bottle could get one detail 'right', but that would not make the bottle genuinely early.
Best,
Joey

Joey,

Thanks for your input.  Hopefully the base on the second one disqualifies it for being modern, like 1970-.  Though the carving is detailed, the bottle does show lots of abrasion.

Cheers,

Rube.

[Jungle Jas]

Hi Albert,


Nice new bottle, I often buy new glass bottles if the subject matter is to my taste, I am a little specific in my tastes! I agree with what has already been said and I to think the deer bottle is newer than stated. My reasoning is the colour which has not been mentioned previously. Recent bottle makers are more adventurous with their colour choice and not always for the better in my opinion. As for the excess of carving on new bottles, you have to take into account of the modern tools available today which makes carving  much easer and quicker than the past.

    Regards Jason.