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Blue glass inside painted table top snuff bottle. Eight Immortals motif

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Author Topic: Blue glass inside painted table top snuff bottle. Eight Immortals motif  (Read 1141 times)
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thomasthomas
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« on: May 18, 2018, 11:56:54 am »

Hello, I'm Thomas

My dad just bought this inside painted snuff bottle. He's an artist himself and liked the artwork. The lady at the top looks like she was copied from this bottle http://snuffbottlecollector.com/bi_rong_jiu/brj_4.htm or maybe they are both from a famous painting?






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« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 10:13:33 am by thomasthomas » Report Spam   Logged

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Rube
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2018, 07:31:09 pm »

Hi Thomas,
Welcome to the Forum!
Regarding the bottle you posted, can you resize the photos so they’re not so big?
It’s hard to really see the image when you have to scroll through it, and you’ll probably get better feedback when the image is reformatted.

Cheers,
Rube
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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2018, 01:01:42 am »

Thomas,

     Rube is partially correct: I would not check out your bottle until all photos are resized; but I still won't, till you follow the rules of this Forum. They aren't hard and they aren't complicated.
1. Introduce yourself in the Introductions section, so we know with whom we are dealing.
2. Then, welcome to the Forum.

Joey


Hi Thomas,
Welcome to the Forum!
Regarding the bottle you posted, can you resize the photos so they’re not so big?
It’s hard to really see the image when you have to scroll through it, and you’ll probably get better feedback when the image is reformatted.

Cheers,
Rube
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

thomasthomas
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2018, 06:30:28 am »

Hi Thomas,
Welcome to the Forum!
Regarding the bottle you posted, can you resize the photos so they’re not so big?
It’s hard to really see the image when you have to scroll through it, and you’ll probably get better feedback when the image is reformatted.

Cheers,
Rube

Thanks Rube, I have resized those now.
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thomasthomas
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2018, 06:30:53 am »

Thomas,

     Rube is partially correct: I would not check out your bottle until all photos are resized; but I still won't, till you follow the rules of this Forum. They aren't hard and they aren't complicated.
1. Introduce yourself in the Introductions section, so we know with whom we are dealing.
2. Then, welcome to the Forum.

Joey


Hi Thomas,
Welcome to the Forum!
Regarding the bottle you posted, can you resize the photos so they’re not so big?
It’s hard to really see the image when you have to scroll through it, and you’ll probably get better feedback when the image is reformatted.

Cheers,
Rube
Thanks Rube, thats done now.
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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2018, 11:11:52 am »

Dear Thomas,
welcome to this Forum.
This morning, when I saw your first post, I was going to say the same that has been said by our friend Joey, but he preceded me.
I know almost nothing about inside painted bottles, it is not my field; others will tell you about the quality of your bottle. Nevertheless, now that the pictures are readable, I can tell you which are the motifs represented on each side. You may find it interesting.
Do google for "Eight immortals" and for "The eight horses of Mu Wang".
Have fun.
Giovanni
 
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2018, 11:33:12 am »

Dear Thomas,

     Again, a warm welcome to the Forum!
I think the bottle is by Yan Yutian, though I did not see his signature.
But I know he used to do such large bottles, in blue glass, clear glass or even transparent amber glass, in addition to the 'regular' sized ones [50 - 70 mm tall].
Yan Yutian painted from ca. 1888 - 1918 in Beijing, and got his start imitating one of the great masters, Zhou Leyuan. At the start he even signed his bottles with ZLY's signature, but usually with his own red seal [often 'Yutian'].

Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

thomasthomas
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2018, 02:53:44 pm »

Dear Thomas,
welcome to this Forum.
This morning, when I saw your first post, I was going to say the same that has been said by our friend Joey, but he preceded me.
I know almost nothing about inside painted bottles, it is not my field; others will tell you about the quality of your bottle. Nevertheless, now that the pictures are readable, I can tell you which are the motifs represented on each side. You may find it interesting.
Do google for "Eight immortals" and for "The eight horses of Mu Wang".
Have fun.
Giovanni
 
Than
Hi Giovanni, thank you very much. I recognized the Eight Immortals but I thought the horses must belong to them. I will google for those now. I don't suppose you can translate any of the writing?
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thomasthomas
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2018, 03:42:05 pm »

Dear Thomas,

     Again, a warm welcome to the Forum!
I think the bottle is by Yan Yutian, though I did not see his signature.
But I know he used to do such large bottles, in blue glass, clear glass or even transparent amber glass, in addition to the 'regular' sized ones [50 - 70 mm tall].
Yan Yutian painted from ca. 1888 - 1918 in Beijing, and got his start imitating one of the great masters, Zhou Leyuan. At the start he even signed his bottles with ZLY's signature, but usually with his own red seal [often 'Yutian'].

Best,
Joey
Thanks a lot Joey, that would be amazing. I've spent all week looking at these bottles online including more than a few Yan Yutian. Now after you mention his name I did a bit more looking and found this http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/Snuffbottle1/media/cGF0aDovbWVkaWNpbmUuanBn/ which came from this thread http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,329.0.html
The similarity is uncanny, but our bottle is larger I guess. I think it was 9cm tall, 4cm wide and 1cm deep.
What do you make of the script down the side? I looks to me that the strokes have uniform thickness, does that mean it was painted with bamboo rather than brush?
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2018, 04:07:23 pm »

Dear Thomas,

    Brushes were introduced to painting inside bottles in the early Modern period [post 1940s at earliest.].

    The Early and Middle Period bottles were always done with a splint of bamboo, the tip shaved to a point, heated and bent to a 90o angle. They also used a second type, a splint of bamboo, with a horsehair wrapped around and around, to resemble a sponge.

    The native Chinese members can translate the Chinese inscription.
Best,
Joey
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Rube
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2018, 03:32:04 am »

Thomas,

Check out bottle number 5 on this collection of blue bottles from Snuffbottlecollector.com
http://snuffbottlecollector.com/_antique/blue.htm
I think it may be from the same artist, though I never would have guessed it to be Yan Yutian.
Regardless, I love the side with the horses, so fun!

Cheers,

Rube.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 03:49:51 am by Rube » Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector

thomasthomas
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2018, 04:47:22 am »

Dear Thomas,

    Brushes were introduced to painting inside bottles in the early Modern period [post 1940s at earliest.].

    The Early and Middle Period bottles were always done with a splint of bamboo, the tip shaved to a point, heated and bent to a 90o angle. They also used a second type, a splint of bamboo, with a horsehair wrapped around and around, to resemble a sponge.

    The native Chinese members can translate the Chinese inscription.
Best,
Joey

Ah now that is fascinating. Thank you for that. I think I'll check out some books, can you recommend any on the history IPB?
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thomasthomas
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2018, 06:06:28 am »

Thomas,

Check out bottle number 5 on this collection of blue bottles from Snuffbottlecollector.com
http://snuffbottlecollector.com/_antique/blue.htm
I think it may be from the same artist, though I never would have guessed it to be Yan Yutian.
Regardless, I love the side with the horses, so fun!

Cheers,

Rube.

Thanks a lot, Rube. To my eye that has to be the same artist. The Bottle colour, paint colour, mountains, the pale blue path or river with the black dots, the tree trunk and the branches with the white leaves. And the figures too all look to be by the same hand to my untrained eye.

The script looks similar too, with the two seals and that word in the middle looks the same writing.

I'd be interested to hear who you would guess at?

Regards
Thomas
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Rube
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2018, 09:14:39 am »

Thomas,

That's the problem, but a fun one:  my eye is untrained too! I really like the bottles painted by Yan Yutian.  He's actually one of my favorite
IPSB artists.  I can see some details that might look like they came from him, and some that don't.  For example, the horses.  They seem too simple to me, almost cartoonish.  I'd attribute them to Bi Rongjiu, maybe even Yong Shoutian or Liu Qiao.  And, I'd expect horses painted by
Yan Yutian to have more depth and shading like the camels he's known for.  But, I've never really seen any horses painted by Yan Yutian.  That's why I said I never would have guessed it was from him.  Others on this Forum, like Joey, have much more experience with snuff bottles than I.  His book about IPSB is a great resource!  Two of my favorite general books about snuff bottles are by Lilla Perry and Bob Stevens.  But this Forum is an amazing resource, and I'm glad you found it.  Good luck with your search.

Cheers,

Rube.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 09:33:16 am by Rube » Report Spam   Logged

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forestman
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2018, 04:05:39 am »

Hi Thomas,

These are 2 bottles that were part of a lot of 7 bottles that I bought from the man who put up the Snuff Bottle For Free site. They look pretty good for a match of artist and have the same Chinese calligraphy on both although I don't know if it is an artists name or something else, maybe one of the native Chinese members can help as Joey suggests.

I wouldn't have thought it was Yan Yutien, I have a few of his bottles and can't see similarities.

Regards, Adrian.


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« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2018, 04:45:10 am »

Guys,  I could be wrong about the bottle being by Yan Yutian.
I have been wrong before.  Roll Eyes Grin
So please give Thomas other artists to compare with.
Best,
Joey

PS: Thomas, if you come to the meeting in Port Sunlight, bring the bottle, and we can ask Susan Page and others. And I'm better at judging 'live' than over a screen - I'm no Steven.
Best,
Joey
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 04:47:37 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Rube
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« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2018, 05:04:00 am »

Adrian,

Aren't those by Liu Qiao?
http://snuffbottlecollector.com/liu_qiao/liu_qiao_1.htm
Cheers,

Rube.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 05:11:05 am by Rube » Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector

thomasthomas
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« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2018, 05:28:11 am »

Thomas,

That's the problem, but a fun one:  my eye is untrained too! I really like the bottles painted by Yan Yutian.  He's actually one of my favorite
IPSB artists.  I can see some details that might look like they came from him, and some that don't.  For example, the horses.  They seem too simple to me, almost cartoonish.  I'd attribute them to Bi Rongjiu, maybe even Yong Shoutian or Liu Qiao.  And, I'd expect horses painted by
Yan Yutian to have more depth and shading like the camels he's known for.  But, I've never really seen any horses painted by Yan Yutian.  That's why I said I never would have guessed it was from him.  Others on this Forum, like Joey, have much more experience with snuff bottles than I.  His book about IPSB is a great resource!  Two of my favorite general books about snuff bottles are by Lilla Perry and Bob Stevens.  But this Forum is an amazing resource, and I'm glad you found it.  Good luck with your search.

Cheers,

Rube.

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forestman
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« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2018, 08:32:42 am »

Hi Rube,

It seems they are. Funny but I been onto the site to try and find an artist for my bottles despite having them for some time now. I have another from the 7 I bought that is unsigned but by Liu Qiao as well. Most of the 7 had damage to one degree or another so weren't expensive. Sadly the best one was the most damaged which had a Ye family sense to it. Not surprised to see Liu Qiao as a student of Yong Shutien as I was going to suggest the eyebrows of the figures on Thomas's bottle reminded me of Yong Shutien's warriors.

Regards, Adrian.
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Steven
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« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2018, 02:08:23 pm »

Hi Thomas,

Welcome to the Forum! and Thanks you for sharing the bottle.

The bottle doesn't look like LiuQiao in my opinion, actually that your bottle is signed with "Chang bai shan Ren"

Chang Bai shanren is a art name, I assume that he is a shandong artist .

Best,

Steven
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