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Crouching Tiger... Hidden Dragon?

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SBNut
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« on: March 15, 2018, 02:12:29 pm »

Can you see the hidden dragon? I bought this piece from one of our members a while back when I first joined. It has been one of my favorites in my collection because of the inclusions which if you look closely you can see a dragons face coming through the clouds. Its very thin and hollow with these striations (from the carving) on the interior which when the light passes through gives it this liquidity or smoke-like texture which I am not sure if it was on purpose or not. Enjoy!

Material - Agate
Dimensions - 5.5cm H (w/o stopper) x 3.76cm W x 2.4cm D
Top - Slightly Indented
Bottom - Flat

~Daniel


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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2018, 04:38:04 pm »

Dear Daniel,

      A beautiful bottle, though I can't say if it is modern, 'vintage', or antique.
Best,
Joey

     
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

SBNut
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2018, 02:17:22 pm »

Hi Joey,

Excuse my ignorance, is there a way of telling the age by the indented mouth of the bottle? Do modern carvers go to this depth of detail? I remember discussions on here previously about dating the bottle by the mouth.. or maybe that was part of a discussion in one of Hugh Moss' books Undecided. The bottom is flat (and I seemed to have neglected a photo of it - sorry! attached below) and from what I know is that older bottles also have sunken bottom. I also have a feeling it is more modern as this would fall under the "shadow agate" type of bottle which are typically surface carved detailing the dark areas, whereas mine is simply smooth. There is some old snuff stuck in the bottom I can see, maybe ill try filling it with some and see how the pattern comes out. Again, I apologize for my ignorance but its great to learn about and know what to look out for. Thanks for your input!

~Daniel


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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2018, 05:43:34 pm »

Dear Daniel,

      No need to apologise for not yet having learned. We are all ignorant till we learn.
Some of the best shadow agate SBs have no carving, just being cut to optimise the natural picture in the markings. That does not make it older or younger.
The indented mouth has been known for a long time, and can point to a bit more work, but is certainly found on the better modern bottles.
   I like it, but can't tell over the screen it's age.
But a beautiful bottle.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2018, 05:59:03 pm »

Hi Daniel,

Yes, modern carvers do go to the trouble of working a concave mouth if they think it will be worth their while. The problem is that not all old bottles had concave mouths so it can't be a guarantee of an old bottle if it has a concave mouth, nor is it a guarantee of a new bottle if it doesn't.

One thing I look out for is how smoothly the inside of a bottle has been carved. Modern bottles tend to be rough on the inside which is caused by using modern rotary tools to hollow them out. What I can see on your bottle from your pictures is that the walls seem to be uneven in thickness which suggests a modern bottle.

To smoothly hollow out a bottle with modern high speed rotary tools is very hard to do where as making the outside smooth is relatively easy.

Modern workers don't want to spend the time hollowing out bottles by hand working a tool back and forth inside a bottle for days to make it smooth and it is very hard to replicate that finish with modern methods, I know, I've tried.

There is little to go by from the treatment of the base of bottles as a means to date bottles although I will add a picture later which suggests a particular dating.

I will try and photograph the insides of modern versus old bottles to show the difference in smoothness of interiors but it may be hard to show.

Regards, Adrian.
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Rube
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2018, 08:10:24 pm »

Adrian,
I need to pick your brain about the trials and tribulations of hollowing your own bottle. I have an old fragment of walrus ivory and someday I want to make a snuff bottle out of it, and dye it to resemble malachite or spinach jade.
 
Cheers,
Rube
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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

forestman
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2018, 09:24:37 am »

Hi Rube,

You are welcome to pick away for any help I can give you.

I have used a Dremel tool but basically any Multi Purpose Tool does the same job. I now use a fixed motor with shafts coming out of either side of the motor and a flexible drive shaft with a smaller than normal chuck on the end. I find tube drills work best which are available in a variety of diameters.

On stone bottles I fill the void with water when drilling which makes the drill bits last longer and cuts down on the heat generated. On something like agate it gets more transparent the thinner the walls get so you can see where the drill bit is.

You get a sort of feel of how thin its getting or where there are high spots, just don't break through the wall as you get the feel from holding the bottle in your hand as you work it.

I haven't tried working any ivory and you will be working blind as it isn't transparent so don't over hollow.

Regards, Adrian.
 
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2018, 09:37:21 am »

Hi Daniel,

I haven't had any luck photographing the inside of any bottles which would show what I mean in a clearer way but this picture may help.

In the main body of the bottle, away from where the fish is carved, you can see what look almost like veins in flesh. This is where the thickness of the walls are uneven inside the bottle.

Hollowing out with a high speed tube drill or a abrasive ball on a shaft means they dig into the surface leaving it lumpy and uneven and it takes a lot of work to try and smooth it out. I have a very high quality modern bottle where it is far smoother inside but there is still a difference in the finished surface compared to a good genuine old bottle which has been worked by hand.

The best way to show the difference would be to cut an old and a new bottle in half but you might understand my reluctance to do that.

Regards, Adrian.


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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2018, 12:53:01 am »

Hi Daniel,

I agree with others that this is a good looking bottle, but hard to date. I also agree 100% with what Adrian says about the quality of the hollowed interior surfaces (irrespective of how thick or thin the bottle's walls are) being a good indicator of old vs. modern production.

The photo he posted illustrates the unevenness caused by gouging of high speed drills. But don't rely on photos alone. Some very well hollowed agate bottles can cause a ripple effect to appear, which looks somewhat similar to the markings seen in his photo detail.   

We discussed this ripple effect on the forum a few years back. If I can find the post, I'll add the link later.

All best,
Tom

PS: Found the thread...!   http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1006.msg9489.html#msg9489
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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2018, 06:26:27 am »

Dear Adrian,

      Great post! But I didn't know how I was going to caution you re.rippled effect on genuine antique chalcedony bottles, which I used to actively search for.
Thank G-D Tom did it, and better than I could have.

Dear Tom,

     See above. Thank you.
Best to all,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

SBNut
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2018, 12:39:06 pm »

Thank you all for your replies, very interesting I must say.

Joey,

As this field is so inundated with fakes and low quality bottles its great to talk about these topics so I can learn how to sift through all the garbage. I've learned more here from practical examples than from reading the 50+ snuff bottle books I have.

Adrian,

As you can tell from the photos the inside of the bottle is uneven and there are "wavy" like patterns on the inner surface especially closer to the bottom of the bottle. I initially thought these marks were purposeful because when the light shines through it gives the outside surface a very "watery/cloudy" look to it, which is quite pleasing to look it.There are a few "round" carved shapes, a little smaller than that of a pencil eraser, which are more noticeable on the bottom. Is this the sign of a modern drill tool? On the side it looks like a small spoon has gouged/scooped out the rock piece by piece but this is possibly just from a drill. I have to say though that the shoulder is carved out fairly high as well which is something I look for on carved bottles like this as most modern bottles tend to make a "fan" shaped interior (wide on the bottom but narrow at the mouth).

From your photo I can definitely see a comparison to my bottle. Yes I believe that if this was an old bottle they would have taken the time to smooth out the interior perfectly flat.

Tom,

The interior walls are quite thin. Its hard to say exactly but far thinner than most bottles I have come across. I did try to see if it was a floater (but it failed). The link sent me to an error cannot be found page?

Thank you all for your input, I appreciate it!

~Daniel
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2018, 01:59:02 pm »

Hi Daniel,

The round shapes in the bottom would likely be from a drill bit worked straight down into the bottle. If the drill bit is a smaller diameter than the neck opening then it can be used at an angle and removes most of the material when hollowing.

A fan shaped hollowing may be more likely an early 20th Century bottle which were made more for collectors than for actual use and where they didn't want to spend time properly hollowing. More modern drill bits can work into the shoulders of a bottle easier although with narrower bottle mouths they can't really hollow the shoulders as well as a hand worked tool.
 
On old bottles they seem to have used drills made of copper tube in different diameters and grooved at the business end. The actual cutting was done by powdered mineral material as copper itself is quite soft. This powder was poured around the drill bit and trapped in the grooves and the drill bits worked by very primitive hand tools.

I use modern tube drills which are impregnated with diamond dust or similar. Tube drills leave a deeper cut ring around the edge of the hole with the centre of the hole being less deep as the hollow in the centre of the tube doesn't cut but leaves a core which can be snapped off.

I have what I believe are older but lower quality bottles where you can make out marks from drilling at the very base inside. It would have been easier to smooth the sides of a bottle than the base. On the sides you work a hand tool up and down and side to side easier than you could smoothing the base of the bottle.

Your description of the inside sides of your bottle looking like a small spoon has gouged or scooped out material is a good one to picture what it looks like. This is where a modern, high speed drill bit has "dug in" . Modern drill bits can remove material at a fair rate and do this very easily.

The first picture is of drill bits I use. The longer thin one is the tube drill and it's only 3 or 4mm diameter so can reach into the shoulders through a decent neck opening but the ball type ones are best for working the shoulders.

The second picture shows where tube drills were used on an overlay glass bottle.

Regards, Adrian.


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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2018, 06:22:17 pm »

Adrian,

Fascinating! I knew a drill was involved but that clarifies the process, I can easily see this now on my bottle. In fact, I have a couple other bottles which I think have been created with this method. I know a bit about the rudimentary form of a drill they used in order to carve jade back in the day with a metal "pole", sand/corundum/garnets & water in order to wear down the jade with constant wear, but what you're saying is that the polished inside walls leads to an older period bottle even if the base still has drill pattern marks? This will definitely help me when I am analyzing internally carved bottles as this one.

~Daniel
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2018, 11:24:10 am »

Adrian,

I agree with Daniel.  Thanks for showing these bits!  I'll let you know how my experiment goes, though, I'll practice on wood first.

Cheers,

Rube.
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Wattana
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2018, 11:24:03 pm »

Hi Daniel,

Here is a cut-and-paste of part of the link I posted earlier...

In The Art of the Chinese Snuff Bottle: the J&J Collection, by Hugh Moss, Ka Bo Tsang and Victor Graham, this phenomenon is discussed under bottle nos. 106, 107 and 133. But it is not until a few years later that the same authors illustrate the mechanics of how it works. See A Treasury of Chinese Snuff Bottles, Part II: Quartz, under bottle no. 258, where a diagram shows the basic principles, inherent in certain types of chalcedony, which is not in itself a botryoidal mineral.

The Chinese recognized this characteristic (which they refer to as 'fish scales' in a 19th-century document) as occuring in what they termed 'Western agates'.


The attached diagram shows how it works. This appearance should not be confused with the uneven inner surface caused by poor drilling.

Tom



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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2018, 03:43:31 pm »

Tom,

Thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to think of earlier as this carving being purposeful of the design to create a "cloud-like" atmosphere to the bottle. After looking at the examples in the J&J collection you referenced I can see some similarities with the "fish scales" pattern (although the attachment you provided they remind me more of the "cracked-ice" pattern) especially when peering inside the bottle you can see the layers of "scales". I have attached some photos of the best I can do to illustrate the inside for what I can see and a close up of the outside in order. (*Oops - In one of the photos I forgot to take out the broken spoon end so you can still see it in there*). The last photo is the markings on the bottom/base. I apologize for the quality, this is as clear as I could get them with my Iphone. I'm not sure if these photos help but as they are not very "uniform" I still believe these marks are modern drill marks. Thank you for your input!

~Daniel


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Rube
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2018, 08:26:53 am »

Daniel,

The additional photos sure help.  I think you're right, that those are drill marks, especially looking down from the mouth into the bottle.
But, what a nice effect they have!

Cheers,

Rube.
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