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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 18, 2018, 02:59:02 pm
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Blue and White Porcelain ID

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Author Topic: Blue and White Porcelain ID  (Read 124 times)
Rube
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« on: March 12, 2018, 08:49:43 am »

Hi everyone,

I'm sharing a blue and white porcelain bottle, as I'd like to learn more about this class. It's a theme I've seen many times, but I was hoping to establish potential dating on this particular bottle.  Am I right in calling it decorated in underglaze cobalt blue, with an apocryphal  six character Yongzheng mark? It measures 2 5/8". Does it translate as Virtue, Victory, Gate? Is it a good sign that the walls of the neck are so thin?

Any help is greatly appreciated, as always!

Cheers,

Rube.


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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2018, 11:44:26 am »

Dear Rube,
Yes it is decorated in underglaze cobalt blue. Just for the report, if it was decorated in cobalt blue and then not covered by the glaze, the decoration would turn out black instead of blue.
I am unsure about the date of your bottle. The appearance of the foot is that of recent bottles, and about the thin body, I am suspecting that it is slip casted.
You could inspect the inside of the bottle with a light. If the inside is very uniform and you do not see joint lines, like for example between the body and the base, then it is more probably slip casted and hence not that old. 
I have the feeling that there are appearing new bottles on the market which are very well decorated, like your one, if it turns out to be modern.
Letís hear for the opinion of other members.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Rube
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2018, 12:24:44 pm »

Giovanni,

I'll be sure to look for these clues the next time I'm near this bottle, which will be in less than a month. I can't give an exact date, but I know it was purchased prior to 1976.

Thanks,

Rube.
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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2018, 01:14:05 pm »

Dear Rube,
slip casting technique has been adopted prior to 1976, I don't know exactly when, it should be somewhere in the first half of the 20th C.
For my parameters, I consider a 1976 bottle as modern, although I know that not everybody agree on that.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2018, 04:23:32 pm »


Rube,

Your assessment looks pretty good. Painted with a scene of Manchu officials riding towards the 'Victory Gate', with a Yongzheng mark.  One of the more common designs found in blue and white porcelain snuff bottles.  These tend to date from Guangxu (1875-1908) and further into the 1st quarter of the 20th century from my experience.   Given that the bottle shape is less squatty from what I tend to see with this design it makes me think it could be a later reproduction that was being marketed to snuff bottle collectors in the late 1960's and 1970's.  Also some concerning elements to dating this bottle to a later datie is the hard, bright, glossiness of the over-glaze and the roughness seen along the base of the foot rim.  Without handling it in person my date range would be 1875-1970.  Sounds very much in line to what Giovanni was saying.

Charll

P.S. - Giovanni, you and I are going to have to get together on slip-casting use in China.  I've been asking this question of snuff bottle dealers for the last two years and no one seems to have an answer.  I think it's use could be earlier.   
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2018, 03:08:31 am »

Dear Charll,
I am glad that we are in line with our opinions, thank you.
Do you mean that slip casting in China could possibly have been adopted even in the late 19th century? It will be interesting to determine that.
Although I think that I have never seen a slip casted 19th century vase, it is possible that the technique was first adopted for small items like the snuff bottles.
Kind regards
Giovanni
 
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Rube
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2018, 08:27:15 am »

Charll,

Thanks so much for adding to this thread.  I find your comments regarding its shape, and the condition of the glaze on different areas of bottle to be very helpful. In due time, I'll try and report on the inside findings.

Cheers,

Rube.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 09:04:04 am by Rube » Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector

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