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Large enamel-painted glass bottle

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OIB
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« on: February 06, 2018, 09:43:44 am »

Dear all,

Just to share a glass bottle I recently acquired. It is about 10cm in height ( makimg me to think that it could be a table top bottle to store larger amount of snuff powder ). The amber color glass has external enamel painting of floral design. Under the bottle is a four-character seal mark of ' made in the period of Qian Long '.

For your views and comments please.

Inn Bok



* IMG_0026.JPG (80.4 KB, 478x637 - viewed 88 times.)

* IMG_0027.JPG (101.13 KB, 515x686 - viewed 57 times.)

* IMG_0028.JPG (86.82 KB, 637x478 - viewed 65 times.)

* IMG_0029.JPG (95.48 KB, 515x686 - viewed 96 times.)
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albert
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2018, 08:34:14 am »

Dear OIB,

In my opinion it is a very nice modern bottle. Although it is not old, the artist knows how to work

Thanks for share it!
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2018, 12:31:39 pm »

Dear Inn Bok,

      I actually think it is at least Republic [ca.1915-1935], and might well be 18th C. and Imperial [if the detail I gave you privately, is present].
      Look at the superb shading of the pink and the green. And the style of the leaves and the trunk, etc.
BEST WISHES FOR THE YEAR OF THE DOG,
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Tom B.
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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2018, 02:43:10 pm »

Dear Inn Bok and all,

A wonderful bottle of great artistic value, but I am surprised that Joey thinks your bottle "might well be 18th C. and Imperial...". I know he has a lot more experience with snuff bottles than me.  I assume he was referring to the reassuring fact that the mark seems to be engraved in the glass and then filled with blue enamel.

My concerns are:

  • at 10 cm high, it is uncommonly big for an enameled snuff bottle
  • the mark reads "Qian Long Yu zhi" or "Made by imperial command of Qianlong"
  • The gold around the neck makes it look more like an expensive perfume bottle
  • the color of the blue used for the mark seems off to me

Best regards,

Tom B.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 02:45:07 pm by Tom B. » Report Spam   Logged

Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2018, 05:23:16 pm »

Dear Tom B.,

     You got it in one! The bottle seems to have age, and incised and filled marks were NOT known in the Republican period [sounds like we are discussing Ireland!  Roll Eyes ].
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

albert
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2018, 07:08:49 am »

Dear Joey,

Obviously, now you're making me doubt, but I'm sure I've seen some bottles of the same artist on ebay, selling as modern.

I'll look for you a little tonight.


Best,
Albert
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« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2018, 03:16:54 pm »

Dear Albert,

     Both you and Tom B. seem to feel it is modern, but I think it could very well be Republic period [ca.1915-1935], or even much older, if the mark is incised and filled, which is how the genuine bottles were done.
On copies made from the period 1920 onward, the marks were just painted in enamel and fired.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

albert
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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2018, 04:17:47 pm »

Dear Joey,

If you are thinking it, I trust in you. Maybe the bottles watched by me was modern copies. But I want to search them in order to see the differences bettwen them Wink.

Best,
Albert.
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forestman
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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2018, 04:32:02 pm »

My first feeling on seeing this was that it was modern.

The base glass looks wrong if I download the pictures and zoom in as far as possible. I can't exactly describe it, just an unevenness of the glass, probably mould blown.

I am always suspicious of short spoons that would not really be usable. Of course it could be a replacement but as soon as I see a short metal spoon like this I am weary.

The  gold around the neck hasn't been applied too carefully and the wheel cut design around the neck hasn't been well finished. 

It's not one I could call from pictures with any conviction and the size is unusual.

Regards, Adrian.
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albert
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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2018, 05:08:05 am »

I have not found any very similar item among the modern bottles sold on ebay, but some interesting

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albert
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2018, 05:09:19 am »

...

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Kaja
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2018, 09:33:28 am »

How pretty. I love the art work.

   Kaja
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2018, 03:46:43 pm »

Dear Albert,

      Both the first one, with a Guyuexuan mark, and the second with a Qianlong nianzhi mark, are simply raised enamel applied to the base of the bottle.
 
       It looks like Inn Bok's bottle has an incised and filled mark. Those are the genuine Imperial marks.

Best,
Joey
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albert
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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2018, 01:18:15 pm »

Dear Joey,

Your observation is very iteresting, I will try to found a similar moder item.

Best
Albert.

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Tom B.
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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2018, 04:10:30 pm »

Dear Inn Bok and all,

I assume you are busy, possibly celebrating New Years, but we could use some better images of the mark when you get a chance. 

I wrote Joey an email and voiced my concerns and he replied as follows:

"Dear Tom,

I do think it is Republic, but if it indeed has an incised and filled blue mark, how did they get that right before craftsmen other than the Imperial Workshops knew that detail? In the 1920s & 1930s, artisans like Ye Bengqi could see the objects but not handle them.
 
I understood that only genuine 18th & 19th C. objects had incised and filled enamel marks. Later marks [from Republic onward] were just raised enamel.

This could be a post 1990 PRC fake (in 1986 Robert Kleiner completed serious research on behalf of Sotheby's re.marks; it was published, and I reckon by 1990 or a few years later, was known to the fakers),
but the enameling is so good, I think it is earlier.

Best,
Joey"

I am happy that we have established the two choices for Inn Bok's SB - it is either a fabulous original or a fabulous fake.  In my opinion it is the latter for several reasons.

Thanks to Albert for posting the images of several modern enameled glass snuff bottles.  The double bottle has similar convincing-looking decoration and enamels as Inn Bok's bottle. 


* 18.02.14 QL Enameled glass1.jpg (255.12 KB, 962x954 - viewed 28 times.)
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2018, 04:12:43 pm »

The following images show the mark compared to genuine marks:


* 18.02.14 QL Enameled mark1.jpg (179.56 KB, 1452x532 - viewed 36 times.)

* 18.02.14 QL Enameled mark3National Palace Museum Taiwan.jpg (206.33 KB, 1156x720 - viewed 36 times.)
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2018, 04:13:42 pm »

The harsh gilding around the neck of Inn Bok's bottle bothers me...
Best,
Joey
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Tom B.
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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2018, 04:15:53 pm »

And here is the mark on Inn Bok's SB compared to the mark on the Gu Yue Xuan marked SB posted by Albert.  You can see the similarity in the texture of the mark:


* 18.02.14 QL Enameled mark2guyuexuan.jpg (281.49 KB, 1650x790 - viewed 50 times.)
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2018, 04:17:36 pm »

Dear Joey,

That was the next thing that I was about to point out, but you were quicker. Smiley

Best regards,

Tom B.
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2018, 05:49:25 pm »

Dear Tom B.,

      I must say, the shade of the blue looks 'wrong' on Inn Bok's bottle, but I wonder if that is simply bad photography.
The Guyuexuan mark is quite similar in texture to the Qianlong mark,
but I want to hear if it is incised and filled.
Best,
Joey
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