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2 x Zhou Leyuan bottles ?

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Author Topic: 2 x Zhou Leyuan bottles ?  (Read 196 times)
forestman
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« on: October 26, 2017, 01:43:31 pm »

I collected 4 bottles I bought at auction yesterday, 2 nice overlays and these 2 which were sold in one lot as signed by Chou-Lu-yuan. I have to admit that I didn't read the description as I judge from the photographs and knew the style of the landscape bottle. The estimate was £200-300 for the pair which seemed low and I bought them within the estimate.

Any comments welcomed regarding how genuine they might be.

Regards, Adrian.


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Rube
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2017, 02:09:39 pm »

Adrian,
I think the signatures are off.
Cheers,
Rube
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 03:42:36 pm by Rube » Report Spam   Logged

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George
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2017, 03:27:44 pm »

I agree with Rube.. Both the signatures and style of painting seem off..

Still, very nice bottles !
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forestman
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2017, 04:42:24 pm »

The Treasury books have a lot of Zhou-Leyuan bottles and with a first quick look I think the landscape bottle fits his style. The grass, building, mountains and tree branches look good.

I'll have a more detailed look tomorrow when I have more time.

I'm not sure if all the bottles in the auction came from the same seller but there were some good bottles in the 20 odd on offer.
 
Regards, Adrian.
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Steven
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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 05:30:35 pm »

Congratulations Adrian!

Two very nice bottles. The first one looks right to me although the painting is a little damaged .the second one is well painted with false signature ,but still a very nice middle period bottle ,could be painted by Yan yutian.

Cheers .
Steven
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AntPeople
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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2017, 06:14:13 pm »

Great purchases......

I agree with Steven..... nice bottles

Congratulations

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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

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Pat - 查尚杰
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2017, 10:47:04 pm »

Hi all

I am slowly finding my way back here . Nice purchase Adrian! However, I do think that both are copies. The first one seems ok painting wise but the signature is off, and I would attribute it to Zhang Baotian. The second one has the typical erratical script style of Yan Yutian, so I agree with Steven.

A great buy !
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Pat
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George
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2017, 11:08:09 pm »

The first one seems ok painting wise but the signature is off, and I would attribute it to Zhang Baotian.

The mountains especially remind me of Zhang Baotian..

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Jungle Jas
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2017, 02:02:21 am »

Two nice bottles if bought at the right price, the first one the landscape looks right to me, but I have little experience with the signature.
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forestman
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2017, 07:36:50 am »

I've had more of a chance to go through the 41 Zhou Leyuan bottles in the Treasury books and my own feeling is the landscape bottle is more likely a Zhou Leyuan than a Zhang Baotian.

Zhang Baotian signed bottles as Zhou Leyuan and while he copied his style to a degree he also gave them his own style and didn't use the same colour palette. So his mountains reflect the style of ZL's in defining the shape of the mountains by using an unpainted gap around the mountain profile and in the centre area of them. Other than that there were differences.

ZL used a lot of blue, it is seen in some mountains and in the foliage of the trees and isn't evident in ZB's bottles. ZL also put a second horizontal line across the roof of houses which is quite particular to him. There is a Ye Zhongsan in the Treasury books with the same feature but it's on a bottle painted as ZL style.

ZL also uses areas on the ground where there are small unpainted areas surrounded by grass and he does the same on tree trunks where there are knots to define them. He also tends to paint in the blades of grass, normally as a way to suggest a strong wind by curving them and his trees bend with the wind as well.

You can see all these features in the enlarged picture of my bottle and there is a detail of one of the Treasury bottles as well.

Regards, Adrian. 


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Joey
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2017, 05:03:07 pm »

Dear Adrian,

     I agree with Steven - the landscape is a very nice genuine Zhou Leyuan, but has 'condition issues' [dealerese for wear].  Roll Eyes Grin

     And details on the second do look like work by Yan Yutian.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2017, 10:32:22 am »

Hi  Adrian

I am  now  in London   and  staying  with  a  Chinese   expert on  antique  IPBs.

He  said,  without  hesitation,   that  :

1. The  bottles  are  genuine  antique

2.  However,  neither  bottle  is  by   THE  Zhou  Leyuan  -  both  are  painted  by a  different  artist   who has  signed "Zhou  Leyuan"

Cheers

Peter

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forestman
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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2017, 05:23:16 pm »

Hi Peter,

Thank you for the information, Zhou Leyuan was an artist that has been copied by numerous other artists so it's a question of finding out who painted this one.

I'm still unconvinced it's by Zhang Baotian, mainly due to the use of blue which I can't find on any bottles signed as by him although there are very few to compare it too. I'll try now to compare it to ones he signed as Zhou Leyuan and see if he used any blue in those.

My bottle is 62mm high which is a size that continually crops up in glass bottles painted by Zhou Leyuan, Zhang Baotian and others from the same period and shows signs of age and use for snuffing as well so I agree it is likely of the same period.

Regards, Adrian.
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Joey
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2017, 05:44:12 pm »

Dear Adrian,

       I'm still pretty sure that the landscape on the left is a genuine Zhou Leyuan.
And Peter's 'expert', Li Hui, a friend of mine as well, is not such an expert. He was an artist
of modern bottles, and decided to deal bottles, at first modern IPSBs, and then antique of all types. He and his wife are dealing antiques barely 5 years.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Steven
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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2017, 05:48:23 pm »

Hi  Adrian

I am  now  in London   and  staying  with  a  Chinese   expert on  antique  IPBs.

He  said,  without  hesitation,   that  :

1. The  bottles  are  genuine  antique

2.  However,  neither  bottle  is  by   THE  Zhou  Leyuan  -  both  are  painted  by a  different  artist   who has  signed "Zhou  Leyuan"

Cheers

Peter



Dear Peter,

Glad to hear from you, I wish you have great time in London!

Can you ask the expert that who does he or she think the real artist can be since there are mot many artists can paint that quality bottle during middle period.
we can do some side by side comparison on the Forum and let all the members have their comments and insights, if we know the possible artist.

I personally still think its a genuine Zhou bottle  . Here are the zhou bottles from  1988 the same year as the Adrian's bottle.

The painting style matches well, so does the calligraphy.

Best,

Steven


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« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 08:39:35 pm by Steven » Report Spam   Logged

Steven
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2017, 05:57:36 pm »

Here are the better pics of Adrian's bottle .


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Rube
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2017, 08:48:10 pm »

Adrian,
This has proven to be another great thread, Iíve learned  a lot throughout the discussion and hope, like Steven, that a potential artist can be named for comparison sake (regarding the first bottle). Iíd also like to ask the Forum about its condition. I mean, how does a bottle become so discolored internally? Did it actually contain snuff? I thought most of the ISPBís werenít used?
Cheers,
Rube
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Steven
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2017, 10:14:21 pm »

Thanks Rube!

Its always fun to have deeper discussion while we are not fully agree with each other.

I am including some Zhang baotian bottle here, one is Zhang's bottle ,but false signed Zhou leyuan .zhang's calligraphy is not the same level as Zhou Leyan's as we can tell.

Regarding the painting damages, I would think its because of the snuff. I do have some of bottles have been used but with the fine painting condition, but some of snuff is mixed with herb and Essential oils which might damage the painting, while the painting be contact with oil, the paint might be Dissolved.

Best,

Steven


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« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 10:21:53 pm by Steven » Report Spam   Logged

forestman
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2017, 02:55:29 am »

Thank you all for your comments and time in adding to this discussion. As Steven says, discussion is good even if we do not agree, it makes us look closer at details that we may otherwise miss for one.

The comments made about the number of artists that signed as Zhou Leyuan is that they never tried to fake his style so were quite obviously not by ZL. My second bottle is an example of this as it doesn't conform to a ZL style for that type of subject and is far closer to Yan Yutian's style as has been suggested although I wasn't aware of him being someone to sign off as another artist.

The first pictures I took were before I had a go at cleaning out the ZL ? bottle which had a fair amount of snuff remnants in it. You can see where the spoon has been used as there is a wearing away of the calligraphy on the signature side. It's ironic that we want bottles that are true snuff bottles that have been used but with IP bottles it tends to deface what are miniature works of art.

What is evident of the examples of Zhang Baotian's work that Steven has kindly found is the lack of blue in his palette which is so evident in ZL's work.

Regards, Adrian.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 07:30:50 am by forestman » Report Spam   Logged

Rube
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2017, 06:06:16 am »

Steven,
Thanks for the info about snuff as it sometimes resides in ISPBís.
Adrian,
When I first saw your two bottles, I was quick to judge the signatures as being off. I was pretty certain about the second, but not so sure about the first. The first looks good, but what I am curious about is the comparison of calligraphy of the signature side to the other side. The signature side is faded and finer in detail whereas the other side the calligraphy seems a bolder and clearer, at least as it relates to the rest of the bottle.  Is this the result of you trying to clean it?
Cheers,
Rube
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