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Enamel on copper bottles

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Author Topic: Enamel on copper bottles  (Read 111 times)
Rube
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« on: October 14, 2017, 08:12:25 am »

Greetings everyone,

I'd like to share a few enamel on copper bottles for your review.  The first is "Canton Enamel"?
I can't tell you the height because I forgot to measure it, but I'll guess 2 5/16" w/o the faded blue stone stopper.  There is no mark on the bottom.  I see these come up at auction from time to time, and they never bring in too much, so I'm guessing 20th century?

Cheers,

Rube.


* FullSizeRender canton enamel 1.jpg (103.5 KB, 480x640 - viewed 20 times.)

* FullSizeRender canton enamel 2.jpg (75.32 KB, 480x640 - viewed 9 times.)

* FullSizeRender canton enamel 3.jpg (102.44 KB, 480x640 - viewed 13 times.)

* FullSizeRender canton enamel 4.jpg (103.08 KB, 480x640 - viewed 12 times.)

* FullSizeRender canton enamel 5.jpg (124.35 KB, 480x640 - viewed 15 times.)
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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

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Joey
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2017, 08:19:22 am »

Dear Rube,

      The last picture is basically useless. If we can't see the whole base straight on, it is not much use to post. Similarly with the third.

      But having said that, it is not too important, because this bottle is very low quality, and late 19th/early 20th C. I would say ca. 1880-1940.

      Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Rube
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2017, 08:37:48 am »

Joey,

Thanks for your comments, and sorry about the pics.

I'd like to share another, this is a complete mystery because it's not on my grandmother's list, and it was in her cabinet.
My aunt has no recollection of it either, so, any help is greatly appreciated. It measures 2 1/2" w/o stopper and has a threaded neck and spoon, which I haven't come across too often.

Cheers,

Rube.


* FullSizeRender green enamel 1.jpg (89.5 KB, 480x640 - viewed 21 times.)

* FullSizeRender green enamel 2.jpg (66.92 KB, 480x640 - viewed 8 times.)

* FullSizeRender green enamel 3.jpg (94.15 KB, 480x640 - viewed 17 times.)

* FullSizeRender green enamel 4.jpg (75.57 KB, 480x640 - viewed 12 times.)

* FullSizeRender green enamel 5.jpg (92.95 KB, 480x640 - viewed 18 times.)
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Joey
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2017, 08:59:35 am »

Dear Rube,

     First of all, that bottle is very interesting. And in my opinion much better than the previous one. It is decorated with two of the Eight Buddhist Symbols,
a covered vase or urn on a stand, and a Lotus flower. 

   One finds bottles with screw tops occasionally; usually, the threading is reverse to Western direction.

I'd dated this one to ca. 1840-1900. I like the colour and the design.
But I've changed the dating from ca.1840-1900 to ca.1875-1910, because I noticed the greenish colour on the vase/urn. It is the same shade as that found on Guangxu bottles (1874-1908).

   Another question is Beijing or Guangzhou as the source. I think Guangzhou, but am not positive. these were the two primary enamelling centres. Liulichang Rd. in Beijing, still a centre of handicrafts and curio shops, was, during the 19th and 20th C., a well known area of craftsmen and small workshops. There must have been a similar area in Guangzhou.
I don't believe it is good enough to be Imperial Workshops (Beijing or Guangzhou).   
Shabbat Shalom,
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Rube
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2017, 11:09:50 am »

Joey,
Wow, that's great! I think the enameling is well mottled. I'm not sure about the threading directions, I'm thinking it's standard. Thanks for the follow up info about the two different enamel centers, and analysis about green used in Guangzhou bottles.
Cheers,
Rube
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 02:06:02 pm by Rube » Report Spam   Logged

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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2017, 01:26:53 pm »


Rube,

As Joey indicates the second bottle with the Buddhist symbols is a much higher quality bottle and thus more desirable from a collector's standpoint. 

The only comment I can add to your first bottle is that the stopper appears to be stained magnesite.  If I recall correctly this was a mineral that was extensively used in furnace construction as an insulating material during the industrial age.  Highly sought after in the US in about 1910 and during the course of WWI.  If an original stopper, then it would easily match Joey's time frame as well.

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Rube
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2017, 01:36:47 pm »

Charll,
Thanks for providing the historical context about the stopper. I wondered about the material and thought it must have been stained. Glad to know what it is.
Cheers,
Rube
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Steven
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2017, 05:18:57 pm »

Dear Rube,

I also like the second bottle better.  It looks Canton Enamel to me as well.

It there any chance that you can share a photo of the spoon, I am not so positive about the date, Joey might be correct about the date, but my first impression was later than that. it might be dated early 20th.

Steven
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Joey
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2017, 12:02:09 am »

Dear Rube,

     I think, as Steven does, that it is from a non-Imperial workshop/atelier in  Guangzhou (Canton); but I was referring to the pale green we know from the Guangxu reign [The Guangxu Emperor reigned from 1874-1908].
Best,
Joey


     


Joey,
Wow, that's great! I think the enameling is well mottled. I'm not sure about the threading directions, I'm thinking it's standard. Thanks for the follow up info about the two different enamel centers, and analysis about green used in Guangzhou bottles.
Cheers,
Rube
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2017, 12:04:58 am »

Dear Steven,

     The dating I gave was ca.1875-1910. That IS early 20th C. Do you mean to as late as ca.1935? That could be right as well, I guess. 
Please clarify what you mean by "early 20th C.".
Best,
Joey


Dear Rube,

I also like the second bottle better.  It looks Canton Enamel to me as well.

It there any chance that you can share a photo of the spoon, I am not so positive about the date, Joey might be correct about the date, but my first impression was late than that. it might be dated early 20th.

Steven
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Rube
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2017, 03:16:13 am »

Steven,
I don't have a great shot of the spoon unfortunately. It's kinda spindly, though, as you can tell from the one pic I did provide. Would you expect to see one with a wider surface?
Cheers,
Rube
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Steven
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2017, 10:30:34 am »

Sorry for the confusion Joey.

Yes, I meant it could be as late as 1935 or later as 1950?

-Dear Joey, the screw thread in the mouth gave me the impression altho I am not so positive.

Best,

Steven


Dear Steven,

     The dating I gave was ca.1875-1910. That IS early 20th C. Do you mean to as late as ca.1935? That could be right as well, I guess. 
Please clarify what you mean by "early 20th C.".
Best,
Joey

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Rube
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2017, 01:13:17 pm »

Steven,
I'm right in that the threading is standard, yes?
Cheers,
Rube
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Joey
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2017, 05:52:00 pm »

Dear Steven,

     You could be right, and it could be as late as 1950.
But we are agreed it is quite good, and certainly better than the previous example.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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