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December 18, 2017, 06:47:42 am
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Fish Overlay

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Question: VJIkUP
QwMVQDUsSZXJzwMqK - 0 (0%)
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Author Topic: Fish Overlay  (Read 829 times)
Jungle Jas
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« Reply #80 on: October 15, 2017, 06:18:07 pm »

Hi Adrian, since my last post I have had a few days off and went to the Newark antique fair, for those of you that don't live in the UK it is supposed to be the biggest fair in Europe!  I managed to track down an applied multi coloured glass bottle in a similar randomly applied and carved manner as your first bottle. It was a much larger carved bottle some 4 inches high by 5 inches wide, what I call a table bottle. It was nice to see at close quarters, however it did not appeal due to the nature of the carving. Thanks for drawing my attention to this type of bottle though, had it not been for you I probably would not have taken quite so much interest in it.

Regards Jason.
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forestman
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« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2017, 09:33:49 am »

Hi Jason,

I thought I would post a picture of this bottle from my collection as you were commenting on the thickness of the glass overlay on Rube's bottle.

This is three layered colours of overlay on a bottle and I would think is Republic period onwards.

I assume the thickness of the overlay is dictated mainly by the temperature the overlay glass is held at prior to being used. I imagine a higher temperature leads to a thinner overlay layer as the glass will be more liquid so when the base bottle is dipped in the overlay colour more of that colour will run off.

I know that some additives were used to make the glass used for blown bottles more pliable so it could be blown without breaking. I don't know if it was possible to use some additive that would make glass more liquid allowing for thinner layers of overlays ?

As I don't recall older multiple overlay bottles as having noticeably thin overlay layers then could that be a result of their inability to control furnace temperatures to give enough heat for thinner layers ?

Regards, Adrian.


* PA230702.jpg (78.57 KB, 541x700 - viewed 18 times.)
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Rube
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« Reply #82 on: October 23, 2017, 02:12:36 pm »

Adrian,

Nice one!

Cheers,

Rube.
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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

Jungle Jas
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« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2017, 04:06:30 pm »

Hi, Adrian,

What a gorgeous bottle, with very thin overlays, especially the final layer which is as thin as the layers on the old Realgar bottles. Thanks for sharing.

Regards Jason. 
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Joey
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« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2017, 04:27:47 pm »

Hi Adrian,

     It's pretty, but I'd date it to ca.1995 to a month before you bought it.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

forestman
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« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2017, 03:27:49 am »

Dear Joey,

I bought it as a Christmas present to myself in 1994  Wink

The only reason for my posting it was to highlight how thin the overlay layers are. It's also very light and I think Rube said his fish overlay bottle was light. Was there some period where no lead was added, possibly from a cost point of view !

Regards, Adrian.
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Jungle Jas
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« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2017, 04:26:54 am »

Hi all, lead is also bad for the glass makers health, although I'm not sure they are to hot on health and safety over there.  Roll Eyes  I found out about lead to my cost when I was in my early twenties. I decided I was going to make bronze statues,  however I decided to use gunmetal instead of bronze because it was half the price. but it contains lead not tin.  Grin I always used to cast on Saturdays but then spent all day in bed on Sunday with blinding headache and unable to see!!!!!!  Shocked

Regards, Jason.

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forestman
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« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2017, 07:27:56 am »

Hi Jason,

I've spent a few Sundays with a blinding headache and bloodshot eyes. It must be because of the lead crystal glasses I was drinking from.

I went one better than you and bought the following as an example of applied overlays although I did wonder before I received it if it may be appliqued which it isn't.

They weren't happy with 6 colours of overlay (there's a white flower head on the reverse side) but decided it needed to be internally painted as well.

I can't say I especially like it but the control of where each individual colour has been applied and the quality of carving are very good.

Regards, Adrian.


* PA240704.jpg (74.17 KB, 521x700 - viewed 9 times.)
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forestman
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« Reply #88 on: October 24, 2017, 07:35:30 am »

Hi Rube,

I thought you might like to see this bottle I found in a catalogue I received today of the sale of the Arthur Gadsby collection of snuff bottles.

"A glass overlay snuff bottle, 1800- 1880, the blue ground overlaid in black on each side with a scaly fish, one shoulder with a leaping toad, the other with a crab, the base encircled by crested waves".

One thing I've noticed with catalogued older bottles is the fish scales are always rounded to one degree or another whereas on your bottle they are more cross hatched.

Regards, Adrian.


* PA240703.jpg (128.33 KB, 536x700 - viewed 18 times.)
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pookles
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« Reply #89 on: October 24, 2017, 09:44:28 am »

Dear all,

Really looks like the same bottle! I suppose it isn't unreasonable to suggest that every bottle that rolls off the production line is completed to the same quality?

Best,
Luke
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Luke
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« Reply #90 on: October 24, 2017, 12:06:26 pm »

Hi  Adrian, did I see your orange goose bottle on eBay recently?  A very interesting observation regarding the fish scales, I must look out for that.

Regards Jason.
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Fiveroosters
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« Reply #91 on: October 24, 2017, 12:50:09 pm »

Dear Adrian and all,
rounded scales mean a greater accuracy in carving, hence almost always related to older bottles.
I do not think that thinner layer is related to temperature, because they had no problems in going up with the temperature.
It must be matter of glass recipe, there are ingredients which are lowering the viscosity.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Rube
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« Reply #92 on: October 24, 2017, 04:28:32 pm »

Adrian,

That's great!  Is the fish, three legged toad, and crab some kind of rebus?  I agree with Giovanni about the rounding of the scales.  My aunt's has less than the one pictured, but more than simple cross hatching, and it follows the contours of the fish.

Cheers,

Rube.
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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

Joey
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« Reply #93 on: October 24, 2017, 04:47:05 pm »

Dear Adrian,
 
     Then let me date it earlier, due to its obviously being made before you bought it: ca. 1985 - 1994.  Grin
Better?
Joey

Dear Joey,

I bought it as a Christmas present to myself in 1994  Wink

The only reason for my posting it was to highlight how thin the overlay layers are. It's also very light and I think Rube said his fish overlay bottle was light. Was there some period where no lead was added, possibly from a cost point of view !

Regards, Adrian.
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #94 on: October 24, 2017, 05:07:34 pm »

Dear Joey,

In reality it was a more recent purchase than I suggested  Grin. We can say it's new enough for the date not to matter.

Regards, Adrian.


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Jungle Jas
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« Reply #95 on: October 25, 2017, 02:05:08 am »

Dear Joey,

In reality it was a more recent purchase than I suggested  Grin. We can say it's new enough for the date not to matter.

Regards, Adrian.




I must say age doesn't concern me when buying snuff bottles If I like it and It makes me smile I buy it. The only relevance age has for me is price. Grin

Regards Jas.

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forestman
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« Reply #96 on: October 25, 2017, 04:21:13 am »

Hi Rube,

A crab can mean harmony or luck in passing civil service exams.
Fish can also mean harmony or abundance and can relate to rank.
A three legged toad can mean luck in passing civil service exams or wealth.

So possibly harmony and wealth or a good exam pass leading to rank ?

YT posted an overlay bottle with a fish on one face with a crab and a three legged toad on the shoulders but with a frog on a leaf/lily pad on the reverse face so it seems a not uncommon theme.

Regards, Adrian.
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Rube
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« Reply #97 on: October 25, 2017, 04:41:34 am »

Adrian,
Thanks for the information about the meanings for these three creatures.
Cheers,
Rube
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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

pookles
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« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2017, 03:58:54 am »

All,

Another bottle very similar to Rubens in the V&A collection - a black overlay on a white ground...

http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O8013/snuff-bottle-unknown/

Best,
Luke
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Luke
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« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2017, 09:36:59 am »

Hi Luke,

Thanks for finding another example.

I have exactly the same feeling when I see the V and A bottle that I had on seeing Rube's, very smooth surface to the white layer with fairly crudely carved design of the overlay. The same can be said of the bottom right bottle. The bottom left bottle appears to be better carved to the overlay yet you can see some variation in the white layer from where it has been worked.

What I did find in the Burghley House collection was a finished base bottle with carved footrim on which uncarved areas of overlay had been applied so it clearly was possible to fuse glass to a finished bottle and if the blobs of overlay were carefully placed then very little carving back to the base layer was needed meaning large areas of the base colour would be perfect.

Regards, Adrian.
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