General information about the Site

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, evaluating, identifying, researching, appraisals, and much more.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Steven shared this beautiful Ma Shaoxian bottle

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector

The International Chinese Snuff Bottle Society


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 17, 2017, 04:51:47 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Downloads Gallery Staff List Login Register  

Fish Overlay

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5
  Add poll  |  Print  
Author Topic: Fish Overlay  (Read 597 times)
Steven
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3914



View Profile
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2017, 02:52:15 pm »

Thanks you all sharing the experience, I have been enjoy to read all the comments!

After seeing the new pictures, I actually think the bottle is an overlay instead of applique bottle. there is many little details tell the story, I have to agree the carving on the bottle is not so common way , the overlay is thicker than usual, and the cut is mostly straight down instead of carving the certain angles.

In the last picture, we can see the white base was cut deeply along with the overlay layer. other small spots also can tell the sign of being cut.

Its just my observation, two cents worth. Let's keep it going.

Steven 


* overlay.jpg (183.93 KB, 480x640 - viewed 11 times.)

* overlay2.jpg (157.98 KB, 480x640 - viewed 13 times.)

* overlay3.jpg (147.33 KB, 480x640 - viewed 16 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Jungle Jas
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 99


View Profile
« Reply #61 on: September 29, 2017, 03:22:30 pm »

Now I'm completely confused, and I don't know what to think! Is the wear on the black overlay some kind of acid treatment, in your opinion?
So, Adrian, get busy and win that Lotto!
Cheers,
Rube

Rube, can you explain which particular wear you mean.

Regards Jas.
Report Spam   Logged
forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 468


View Profile
« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2017, 03:35:07 pm »

Hi Steven,

Your first two pictures highlight what I think are chips in the overlay and where it has sheared glass off the overlay it has taken small bits of the base glass with it. I know I have taken chips out of the glass on the top of a neck of a bottle when I have prised glued stoppers off.

I think the area in your third picture can't be an overcut into the base layer. My rather scrappy arrow shows the only area where I think there might be some over cutting into the base layer.

Regards, Adrian


* Inkedoverlay3_LI.jpg (908.64 KB, 480x640 - viewed 9 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2762



View Profile
« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2017, 03:55:11 pm »

Dear all,
sorry but I am totally sure that you all are wrong. I am so sure that I can bet, if you wish.
Please do not think that I am arrogant; I am neither a genius. I am sure simply because it is absolutely evident.
Dear Adrian, I do not understand why you are not able to see the expected curve at the black/white layers joining, while in the picture that you have provided as an example the curve is exactly the same, see the picture below, with the two yellow arrows. And that is only one point where we can see the curve. It is visible in many places, as shown in the pictures that I have posted earlier. And it is also understood in other places by the position of the light reflections.
Dear Steven, what you have highlighted in the same picture below as deeply cut of the white layer is indeed the shadow of the black layer over it.
I am suspecting that you guys are looking at the pictures on the display of the iphone and not on a decent monitor. Is that the reason perhaps?
I continue also to be convinced that it is easier and less work to make a standard complete overlay and carving than making precise pieces. Because of that, I even less understand a mix of technologies as suggested by Adrian regarding the bristles.
Dear Rube, it seems that you have not understood at what you should look.
It is very simple. Follow accurately the vertical side of the black overlay, until the junction with the white layer. If necessary, take a lens.
If you see that the vertical side goes a bit beyond the junction between the two layers, and that it has a small gentle curve completely within the white layer, then it is a standard overlay.
Instead, if the vertical black side ends exactly at the junction and there is a sudden sharp angle exactly in that point, then it is applied.
If you have a camera, take a picture of the side view of the junction, like we see in the picture below, but enlarged.
Kind regards
Giovanni


* index.php.jpg (87.49 KB, 480x640 - viewed 12 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 468


View Profile
« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2017, 04:21:32 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

I am quite capable of clicking on the blue reference below Rube's pictures which enable me to load his picture onto my MONITOR and zoom into them in detail but thank you for your concern that I may be viewing the pictures on my phone.

The area you have arrowed is on the edge of the bottle. As the overlay protrudes from the base layer then what you see is possibly the overlay extending around the side of the bottle giving the appearance of a curve.

I have found one bit of the overlay to base junction that shows the sort of curving I would expect as arrowed in the attached picture.

Also in Steven's third picture where he has arrowed, the end of the fin shows a slight crescent shape of very thin overlay which I think is caused by a drill bit or similar which would suggest an overlay.

Regards, Adrian.



* InkedFullSizeRender fish 4_LI.jpg (927.28 KB, 480x640 - viewed 9 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Rube
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Posts: 310


View Profile
« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2017, 09:12:20 pm »

Steven,

I'm with you in that I'm glad this discussion is continuing!  Highly educational!  My comment to you regarding the thickness of the waves is that compositionally, the thickness adds weight to the base, thus it may have been done to suggest more substance ( that's the artist in me talking, anyway).  I'm equally fascinated that there are so many opposing views. Jas, I'm confused by your comments about the marks being straight out of the kiln, as I see marks that accentuate the contours of the overlay, suggesting tool marks.  And, as far as wear is concerned, I'm talking about all the wear on the black overlay especially around the fish face. It's shinier on the indentations of the carvings than the higher relief areas.  Giovanni, thanks as always for  weighing in.  I did understand you, initially, about what to look for, but I promptly forgot, as I was so excited to see what I think are tool marks on the base layer, that I forgot to photograph what you requested, and concentrated on that instead. I will return a third time to my Aunt's to rectify this, and I may use a black background, so I apologize. Adrian, I love that you're sticking to your guns, but I think the Bloch bottle you showed bears no resemblance to this one. Yes, that is appliqué, but it's a round circle, with zero detail.  I think Giovanni's argument makes more sense, especially since I have no experience with glass, but with all the tool marks on the base of the bottle, and the somewhat crude, at times, carving, I think this is an old utilitarian bottle, very light, by the way.

Cheers,

Rube.
Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector

Rube
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Posts: 310


View Profile
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2017, 09:40:02 pm »

Giovanni,

Do these help at all?  I see lots of curvature  on the profile of the black overlay.

Cheers,

Rube.


* FullSizeRender fish 11.jpg (332.51 KB, 1373x1829 - viewed 9 times.)

* FullSizeRender fish 12.jpg (383.78 KB, 1633x2176 - viewed 10 times.)

* FullSizeRender fish 13.jpg (72.28 KB, 480x640 - viewed 11 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector

Jungle Jas
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 99


View Profile
« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2017, 01:29:10 am »

Hi all, I think some of you are missing the point of what I was trying to communicate to you. Yes there are tool marks all around the applied/overlaid black, you would expect that, as with both methods the black would have to  be worked on, but with applied glass far less. You also have to take into account the carver may not of been  of the best quality. The areas to concentrate looking for tool marks are the areas well away from the black. I can see no tool marks in these areas. Meaning they have never been worked on, Therefor this bottle could not be produced by the overlay method.

Kind regards Jason.
Report Spam   Logged
Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2762



View Profile
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2017, 01:32:27 am »

Dear Rube,
here below is a detail of one of your pictures, where it is exactly highlighted what I was requesting, i.e. a side view of the cutting. A front view is not showing that, especially in pictures.
Dear all I think that that detail is clearly showing that Rube's bottle is a standard overlay; what is relevant in my opinion, as said at the beginning, is that the carver has been very precise. Only a very thin layer of the white glass has been grinded out.
I believe that what contributed to the impression that this bottle was anomalous is the great contrast of the two colors and the small size of the bottle.
Kind regards
Giovanni


* Joining.jpg (93.57 KB, 1160x833 - viewed 9 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2762



View Profile
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2017, 01:35:25 am »

Dear Jason,
Rube said that there are tool marks everywhere in the white areas. You can't see them because it is very hard to reproduce them in pictures. Besides that difficulty, I am convinced that it is a very well polished bottle.
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

Jungle Jas
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 99


View Profile
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2017, 02:15:58 am »

Dear Jason,
Rube said that there are tool marks everywhere in the white areas. You can't see them because it is very hard to reproduce them in pictures. Besides that difficulty, I am convinced that it is a very well polished bottle.
Giovanni


Giovanni, personally I think the polishing/grinding around the black is no more than average, why should it turn into well polished bottle elsewhere. I think this may be another case of having to agree to disagree.  Grin

Rube, If you ever come to the UK, please bring the bottle with you. Wink

Regards to you both, Jas.
Report Spam   Logged
Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2762



View Profile
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2017, 03:08:22 am »

Dear Jason,
I do not understand you. First, you said that you are convinced that Rube’s bottle is not a standard overlay, but the black parts has been added separately.
The detail in Rube’s picture do show that it is instead a standard overlay.
Then, you also said that the white was not polished at all because too much even. And now you say that it is not that well polished.
You seems not taking into account what said by Rube, who has the bottle in hands.
Kind regards
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 468


View Profile
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2017, 03:43:20 am »

It as been very interesting having Rube's bottle posted as you normally see an overlay bottle and it is simply that, you don't question it. But with Rube's bottle there was reason to and it's quite something to have so many pictures of the same bottle provided before it becomes more likely to be a true overlay than an applique.

But what is a true overlay ? Because I came across a description of an "applied" overlay which is not a description I had noticed before. It related to what is a multi colour single overlay layer bottle as opposed to multi colours built up in different layers so is as much related to appliqued as overlaid.

For a traditional single overlay bottle you gather the base colour on the blow tube, roll it to a form a cylinder and dip it in liquid overlay colour and then blow and form the bottle. If you don't carve the overlay colour it may be called "cased" glass, one colour encased in another. When you start carving away the overlay to form a design it becomes what we term an overlay.

With an applied overlay, as the name suggests, you apply areas of colour in specific areas, for instance to form different coloured flowers. For applique the flowers would be already shaped when applied, for an applied design the shape is not formed when applied, simply a blob of colour put in a specific place with the design already known before the bottle is made.

If the applied bits are to be different coloured flowers then the gather of base colour with applied blobs of colours can be dipped in a green overlay which will cover the blobs of colour. When the bottle has been formed and cooled the overlay of green can be ground down to reveal the different applied blobs of colour. The blobs can be carved as flowers and the green carved to form the stems and foliage.

The first picture shows a very poorly conceived multi colour single overlay. The different colours aren't used to form different elements of a design, instead the carver seems to have randomly carved and included different colours for any one element of the design.

The second picture is done purely by an applied method. Each separate colour has been applied as stripes of colour as you can see on the base of the bottle.

Regards, Adrian.


* P9300695.jpg (142.28 KB, 489x770 - viewed 17 times.)

* P9300696.jpg (97.44 KB, 478x770 - viewed 18 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 468


View Profile
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2017, 09:51:59 am »

Adding another picture of an applied overlay from an Arts of Asia magazine from 1990.

This was a bottle owned by the late Y.F.Yang and dates to late 18th Century or earlier. This is the applied overlay in an uncarved state.

These applied colours of overlay would have been applied after the base bottle had been blown and shaped. The base bottle is unpolished and shows no mould marks so was free blown.

Regards, Adrian.


* PA020697.jpg (108.68 KB, 585x700 - viewed 14 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 468


View Profile
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2017, 09:59:30 am »

Adding another bottle from my collection which is more modern but the only example I've seen.

Made from short lengths of Millefiori cane which has been fused together and the bottle then shaped and hollowed.

I watched a online video of the making of Millefiori cane which is very interesting, probably on the Corning Museum of Glass site.

Regards, Adrian.


* P9300694.jpg (108.92 KB, 475x770 - viewed 23 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Rube
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Posts: 310


View Profile
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2017, 12:02:15 pm »

Adrian,
Those are both very interesting bottles!
Cheers,
Rube
Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10390



View Profile WWW
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2017, 01:59:26 am »

Really nice bottles... Although I really like the Millefiori cane glass bottle very much !
Report Spam   Logged

Jungle Jas
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 99


View Profile
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2017, 10:02:11 am »

Adrian, thank you for showing us yet more interesting bottles unfortunately I have never seen one in the flesh only in books and sale catalogues.  You must have an awfully big library on snuff bottles or some real enthusiasm and dedication to dig all this information out. However it does show one thing very clearly, even with this type of applied glass it is nowhere near as thick as the black glass on Rube bottle.

I also like your cane bottle at the end of your piece. I saw a similar one a few months ago which I also liked very much on eBay, but I couldn't bring my self to buy it as  they don't look very Chinese to me. Wink

   
Report Spam   Logged
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8452


View Profile
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2017, 10:21:16 am »

Dear Adrian,

      The millefiori cane bottle is very interesting, but I agree with Jason: it doesn't look Chinese, or even East Asian. And since both you and Jason are in the UK, I want to be clear - I mean East Asian as in Chinese/Japanese; NOT the  BS UK euphemism for Pakistani Moslem.

     I have a tiny millefiori glass dish, almost small enough to be a snuff dish, but Early Roman (ca. 50 BCE - 150 CE), from my late mom's Glass collection.
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 468


View Profile
« Reply #79 on: October 11, 2017, 04:15:19 pm »

Dear Joey and Jason,

I agree it doesn't look Chinese but was bought from a Chinese dealer and functions as a proper snuff bottle being well hollowed so I assume it was made in China.

I have found some other black overlay bottles with thick overlay and quite square carving and it does seem to be something that can be particular to them.

Regards, Adrian.


Report Spam   Logged

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5
  Add poll  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal