Fish Overlay

[forestman]

I'm showing a detail picture from a bottle which I recently acquired that I haven't posted yet because it can be hard when looking at pictures of bottles in books or auction catalogues to see past the beauty in a bottle and so miss other aspects of it, especially as the bottles shown tend to be of the highest quality. This bottle is not carved to the highest quality so is a good example of what to look out for.

On the very highest quality overlay bottles you tend to concentrate on the aspect you see, the overlay carving and it's design. Perhaps the hardest aspect of carving an overlay bottle is in carving away the overlay back to the base layer whilst maintaining the shape of the underlying bottle and leaving no evidence of carving marks after the bottle has had a final polish.

On this picture you can get an idea of how thick the overlay glass layer was on the mask handle on the right but even that has been carved so is thinner than it was. All the other areas have been carved back more to leave the overlay thinner.

There are two areas, on the horses tail and it's front leg, where you can see the real colour of the overlay is more brown than the black that it appears to be. This doesn't seem to have happened because these areas have been over carved but is more because the base layer is not perfectly even in places and there are high spots on it. The carver has no idea where these high spots are until he starts carving and if they fall in the wrong place it can compromise the design.

You can see that in order to maintain the shape of the bottle the side of the ring handle has ended up being carved quite deeply into the base layer.

In the area between the front and back legs of the horse you can see that the carving back to the base layer is very uneven but it has been polished to some degree but to polish it perfectly smooth would have taken a fair amount of time and with this bottle it wouldn't have warranted that much time being spent on finishing it as perfectly as it could have been. With the light on this area from a different direction it can appear far smoother and more cleanly carved. 

Regards, Adrian

[Wattana]

Hi Adrian,

A most informative photograph! The ring handles in particular show just how skillful the work on overlay glass bottles really is.

Tom

[forestman]

I'm adding another picture to show why I said Rube's bottle looked to squared off in it's carving.

This is my red dragon overlay bottle and it is a high quality bottle.

Note how rounded everything is, especially the leg of the dragon which is in the upper right side of the picture. You can see from the light on areas of the base bottle where it is not smooth after the overlay has been carved away. You can also see a lot of over carving into the base bottle at junctions between the overlay and base bottle.

Regards, Adrian.

[Jungle Jas]

Hi all, I have been away on holiday and am surprised but pleased to find this discussion still on going. So I would like to make a few comments if I may.

Giovanni, without having the bottle in my hand all comments are supposition, but I go back to my initial thoughts why would any one put such a thick layer of overlay on the bottle only to grind it off again. I can only think of one, the person that made it was a poor snuff bottle maker, also he would not have bothered to much if it was over thick as I doubt he was the carver as well. I should also say I am not a bottle maker or carver and I do not possess either of these skills. However what I was good at was fusing many pieces of glass together to make a finished object.  You ask how it would be possible to make the waves round the bottom of the bottle. I can think of two methods, if you would like me to explain. The first method would be to make the bottle make the waves in a mould let them cool stick the waves onto the base of the bottle with some temporary glass adhesive then put it in he kiln set at the correct temperature and wait. The waves/splashes would heat quicker than the bottle as they are thinner and more exposed and would fold down the bottle and fuse together. Toni-lee is quite right, glass reacts in different way at different temperatures but all are very predictable once you get used to the specific glass you are using. I should say all glass reacts differently to heat. It is necessary that all the pieces of glass used are compatible or they will  break whilst cooling. The second method is similar to the first but you use a gas torch  and play it on the waves/splashes causing them fold onto the sides of the bottle. I hope this helps but please feel free to ask questions

Regards Jason.

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Jason,
unlike you, I have no direct experience on glass making; I have just seen something, no more than that.
Despite that, I am convinced that doing a complete overlay requires less work, attention and skills than any of the procedures that you suggested.
Because it must be considered that on both of the procedures that you suggested, a carving will be anyway necessary. So it is just one part of the carving that will be avoided.
You did ask “why would anyone put such a thick layer of overlay on the bottle only to grind it off again.”
If that is a non-sense, then look at the picture below, of Adrian’s bottle.
In my opinion, it makes much more sense to ask “why would anyone carve out a so thick layer from the ground layer, which is totally unnecessary”, don’t you think so?
If you see, as highlighted by the red lines, once the carver there did reach the under layer he didn’t stop as he should, but he went much deeper, working out from there a layer that is much thicker than the overlay.
That really is a non-sense if we have to reasoning by our logic.
I wish that we can see the new pictures promised by Rube.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Jungle Jas]

Dear Giovanni,

I think we shall have to agree to disagree. I know which I would prefer to  work on, it would be much easer and quicker to tidy up a premade shape than to start from scratch on a  solid piece of overlay. However others may have there own Ideas.

Kind regards Jason

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Jason,
if it is as you think, why this should be a rare case? It should be the normal practice instead. Do you know other examples?
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Jungle Jas]

Dear Jason,
if it is as you think, why this should be a rare case? It should be the normal practice instead. Do you know other examples?
Kind regards
Giovanni

Unfortunately my collection is packed away as we are about to have building work undertaken on the house,  If I do find anything I will post on here. Regards Jas.

[Rube]

Adrian, Giovanni, and everyone else following this thread:
I just had dinner with my aunt tonight and finally took some more pics of the fish overlay bottle. Just wanted you to know, because you've all been very patient. I can't post them until tomorrow since I don't have access to internet ( I'm using my iPhone to type this) but I will tell you there is much evidence of tool marks on the white glass. Pics to follow tomorrow.
Cheers,
Rube

[Rube]

Greetings,

So sorry for the delay in getting these pictures posted.  I hope they help people draw upon their conclusions.
In looking at them, I'm upset that the white base material is washed out, as I transferred these images from 
my iPhone to my computer, and lost some resolution.  But two things I'd like to note, there is lots of wear on the black overlay material, and lots of tool marks on the white base material.

Cheers,

Rube.

[forestman]

Hi Rube,

I still can't come to any conclusion on this one 

I see what you are saying about wear marks and marks in the base layer but I would expect to see tooling marks in the base layer where the overlay has been shaped and they are conspicuous in their absence. There was one possible one but I think it is where the overlay has chipped off and taken a piece of the base glass with it.

The curves at the ends of all the fins must have been shaped with something like a drill bit, but it's not just shaping that curve, it's also cutting the overlay back to the base layer at the same time. Yet there is no evidence I can see where whatever cutting bit was used has ever over cut into the base layer, every curve has been formed to meet the base layer perfectly. Consider that they are working blind in that whatever cutting bit is obscuring their view and the cutting was aided with fine sand and water.

Every picture I see of it gives me a sense there is something wrong about it. By that I mean what I said initially, the junctions are so clean, the side cuts so square to the base layer, lack of rounding off of the overlay design, thickness of the overlay (Jason's comment which I agree with) and the quality of design and carving of the overlay is at odds with what seems to be an exceptional control of the base to overlay junctions.

IF it was some sort of applique then the overlay would need to be thick, the side shaping would be at right angles and the base to overlay junctions would be perfect.

Regards, Adrian.
 

[Jungle Jas]

Hi Rube, many thanks for the extra pictures, it is indeed a shame the white is washed out because it is there that conclusive evidence would lie. White is allways difficult to photograph. The only thing I can suggest is to underexpose your shots by a couple of stops. However what I can clearly see is tool marks around the black on all pictures, this I would expect to see whether the black was overlaid or applied as precast shapes as they would need to be worked on. What I am looking for is tool marks away from the shapes which I can not see, If I could see that it would be proof to me that it was overlaid, if smooth with little or no  tool marks I would say applied. Take a good look next time you handle it, even if you can't photograph it you will see it with the naked eye. Either way why don't you just enjoy it. Nice bottle even if my own preference is not for black decoration.

Kind regards Jason.

[Rube]

Jason and Adrian,
I've learned quite a bit on this thread regardless of the outcome, thanks for the continued comments. I'll post some of the same pics but in different exposure to show the markings better.
Cheers,
Rube

[forestman]

Hi Rube,

Whatever the outcome it's still a nice bottle which you can enjoy and it has made me look far harder at all my overlay bottles and the detail of the carving of them which is no bad thing. IF it is appliqued then it's a big step on from the very basic appliqued flower type bottles Joey has mentioned.

Here's a couple more close ups of bottles.

Regards, Adrian.

[Rube]

All,

These are the same pics as before, but resolution was enhanced to show markings.  Hope they better reflect
what is going on on the surface.
Adrian, thanks for the additional pics. 

Cheers,

Rube.

[forestman]

Hi Rube,

Thanks for adjusting the pictures. The surface marks are clearer to see now but they are all away from the overlay to base junctions and in an area where they would be easier to polish away than any tooling marks at the junctions.

I think it is the perfect right angle where overlay to base meet that I can't get away from. I can't find any other bottle where there is no rounding of the junction.

I did find an applique bottle in the Barron collection so it was done !

If I win the Euromillions £150m jackpot I'll fly over and inspect your bottle first hand as I feel I've been the one to question it.

I'll give your new pics more time later.

Regards, Adrian

[forestman]

The sort of applique bottles that Joey was describing, this one is better than most I've seen and had a guide price the same as a nicely carved glass monotone bottle, $600-800 in 1990.

Regards, Adrian.

[Jungle Jas]

Hi Rube, thanks for the extra pictures which show the surface detail much better. I am now even more convinced the black was applied although we shall never know for sure! Please look at the first picture you posted today, particularly  the highlight between the fishes head and tail which comprises of a surface covered in various sized very small dimples. This to me has never been touched by human hand and is as cast straight from the kiln. If you look at some of the other pictures you can see the same surface detail.  By the way, what Adrian didn't say was he is bringing me with him when he comes over!

[forestman]

There's another detail that makes me feel it is appliqued.

The feelers on the nose of the fish are too fine to have been part of an appliqued piece. But there are bits on both feelers where the size changes. I think the thinner bits were hot glass thread joined on to the ends of the feelers after the fish applique had been fused to the bottle. It explains why they are very carelessly carved compared to the apparently perfectly carved base to overlay junctions.

Hopefully the picture will work.

Regards, Adrian.

[Rube]

Now I'm completely confused, and I don't know what to think! Is the wear on the black overlay some kind of acid treatment, in your opinion?
So, Adrian, get busy and win that Lotto!
Cheers,
Rube