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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 18, 2018, 03:07:33 pm
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Author Topic: Need help for dating  (Read 230 times)
arnebraat
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« on: August 24, 2017, 03:25:42 pm »

I'm new to this forum and very pleased to get the opportunity to ask about some of the snuff bottles I posess. I may not be a collector, but when my wife and I travel abroad, we try to find some local items as a souvenir. This snuff bottle I bought in Beijing in 2001. The store was one of many in a four story building with antique and vintage stores. A snuff bottle is easy to carry home, but still has typical elements of chinese origin. This was not expencive, but I like very much the dragon motif. Now I wonder if this is just a typical tourist item from the 1990's or maybe a little older.
With regards
Arne Braaten (in Norway)


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« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 03:28:55 pm by arnebraat » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2017, 04:11:28 pm »

Dear Arne,
welcome to the Forum.
The pictures are too small. I would like to see the last two pictures in bigger format, about 800 pixels, plus a detail of the face of the dragon.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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arnebraat
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2017, 05:08:31 pm »

Hi Giovanni.
These pics are taken with the phone in lamplight, and I can see that the dragon head is a very poor picture with a reflection line. The mark at the bottom is very blur, but I can try to do better. Just let me know and I'll shoot some new tomorrow in daylight with a proper camera.
Best regards
Arne


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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2017, 09:08:09 pm »

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Now I wonder if this is just a typical tourist item from the 1990's

Arne,

I believe you have the answer with the above statement.  This looks quite contemporary to me.  The main reason is the overall blue & white pattern, and particularly the dragon design and style is newer and simplified.  A nice quality tourist bottle though.   

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2017, 10:37:13 pm »

Welcome to the forum Ame !

I agree with Charll.. Although it is indeed better than average tourist bottle, it is really recently made..

Still a nice bottle to put on display !
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arnebraat
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2017, 01:57:11 am »

Thank you for your answers! Could anyone translate the marks?
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2017, 02:59:15 am »

若深珍藏..... Collection of Ruo shen .... it's a mark starting from the KangXi regime.

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

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Joey
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2017, 05:48:41 am »

Or Kangxi reign, perhaps.  Grin
But while the mark might be dating back, the bottle definitely is not.
It is an interesting mark; I wonder if the artisan who copied it on to this bottle happened to have a sheet of marks, and was bored doing the regularly copied ones.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2017, 09:19:09 am »

Thanks Joey for the correction...

You are right, this mark for some reason is copied quite frequently..... I saw this mark on a few porcelain pieces at road site store.

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2017, 09:53:44 am »

Dear Pin,

    Thank you. I had written that it was rare. When you wrote that you'd seen the mark on pieces at road-side stores (I envy you! We only seem to have really crappy objects at our road-side stores in Israel. In Ireland at least, there are road-side stands selling fresh strawberries in season, or whatever is in season.), I removed the 'and rare' comment.
Shabbat Shalom,
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2017, 10:45:09 am »

I should say .... those road side antique/second hand store in Singapore's China town....

Actually, I brought one paint bush holder with the same mark maybe 15 years ago from one of the store... I also brought a porcelain tea pot with the same mark from an old man in Thailand 31 years ago for about $12.... when I in Thailand for some army exercise.  Grin

Maybe I should take picture of the tea pot and post it someday....

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

arnebraat
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2017, 12:04:42 pm »

Thank you everybody! Interesting. I'm learning something new every day :-)
Best regards
Arne
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Joey
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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2017, 04:29:35 pm »

We all are.
    I was never allowed to buy Chinese art when 'visiting' neighbouring countries during MY army service. Of course, it was Lebanon in 1982, and we were in the middle of a war; and the Israeli CMJ (Code of Military Justice) defines buying anything as equivalent to looting, with serious punishments; but still...  Cry   
 Roll Eyes Shocked Grin
 
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2017, 12:17:36 pm »


Arne,

I believe this is another example or a mate to your bottle; see the link.

Link: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/41187779_blue-and-white-porcelain-snuff-bottle

Charll
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2017, 05:21:10 pm »

Thank you. Charll. Good to know, and I like very much chinese items with dragon motif.
Best regards
Arne
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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2017, 01:28:54 am »

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I like very much chinese items with dragon motifs.

Arne, I as well.  A significant portion of my collection is centered on dragon motifs.  Not only the snuff bottles, but other blue and white porcelains, Japanese Satsuma, Cloisonné, and wood items that I've purchased over the years. 

I'm trying to catch up with Joey Silver in regard to the number and quality of dragon motif snuff bottles.  Grin

Charll   
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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2017, 06:15:57 am »

Dear Arne,

     You are in great company here, re.love of Asian dragons, especially Chinese. Many of us are quite fanatical about them.

      In the early 1980s, I was blessed to happen to be in Hong Kong during an auction of Chinese ceramics at Sotheby's or Christie's. There was a superb B & W jar, all of 25cm tall max, and similarly across, Yuan Dynasty, ca. 1351, with a sinuous dragon painted wrapped around the majority of the jar's space, below a much smaller panel on the shoulders painted with sprays of Mudan (Imperial Peony).
 
    A friend of mine was working at the auction house, and enabled me to actually handle the jar, and even get into the auction. Not everyone was getting in - the place was packed. It went for US$5.7 mllion, and I figured I'd never get another chance to handle it.

    Turns out it was purchased by curators from the Idemitsu Collection in Tokyo. Jump forward to Oct.1989, and I'm in Honolulu HI, sitting with then registrar Sanna Saks Deutsch (Saks from the Saks 5th Ave. NYC Saks family), going through my collection of SBs to be displayed at the Honolulu Academy of Arts, 16.Nov.1989 - 31.Dec.1989 (but they extended my show to 15.Jan.1990, due to popular demand - we were getting 30,000+ a month).

    When exhibiting in a museum, you must examine each object for damage before and after, in case of insurance issues. I learned a lot from Sanna, re. 'condition issues'! She was so pedantic and careful, which is why we got along so well... Roll Eyes Cheesy

   We were just finishing up my 100+ bottles and 6 snuff dishes, when Dr. Steven Little, then Asian Arts Curator came in to collect Sanna to rush to Honolulu Int. Airport to receive the Idemitsu family's private jet, bringing their museum display collection of Yuan and Ming B & W to Honolulu!

    I'd love to say that they were going to have the privilege to display their B & Ws with my snuff bottles, but honesty forces me to say that the reverse was the case. Google "In Pursuit of The Dragon", or Idemitsu B & W Collection, and you will understand what an honour it was for me to share exhibition space (the gallery wrapped around 3 sides of the courtyard of the HAA on the 3rd fl.; they had 2 1/2 sides, while I had the last bit.

   Which was more than enough for 4 generously sized display cases (glass, plain & carved; stone & jade; ceramic, organic & metal; and inside-painted.).

   Steve and Sanna let me tag along to pick up the Idemitsu treasures, and then even let me help with unpacking and doing status reports! I was in heaven. At the Grand Opening, I was sharing the dais with Mrs. Idemitsu and 2 of the curators from her family's private museum, along with George Ellis, Steven Little, Sanna Deutsch, etc.

    I jokingly suggested to Mrs. I. that since she had plenty of Ming & Yuan B & Ws, but no Qing B & W snuff bottles, I'd trade her 5 SBs for the Yuan dragon jar. She said fine, but that I should deal with the curator! Who looked like he wanted to take a samurai sword to her and then to himself.

    I replied, "I was joking! The 5 SBs are not worth more than US$3,000  in total! You paid US$5.7 million for the jar!"  Mrs. I.'s response - "I don't deal with that sort of thing".  The curator was breathing again, and now my best friend Roll Eyes Grin.

    Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2017, 08:17:29 am »

Hi Joey,

What a great story! We can always count on you for the most exciting adventures.

Hey Arne,

Welcome to the forum!

I too am a member of the "I love dragons club." I am forever counting dragon toes, trying to distinguish just where this particular dragon hales from. All kidding aside, there is nothing more wonderful than a dragon wrapped around a snuff bottle.

Regards,

Toni-Lee
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Toni-Lee

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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2017, 12:27:57 pm »

Dear Toni-Lee,

      Thank you.
      By the way, did you know that the design of the dragon wrapped around the cylindrical bottle is meant to reproduce  specially woven narrow dragon motif carpets that were designed to be wrapped around the pillars of temples and palaces in China during certain Holy Day periods?

     And some bottles have on the base a series of concentric rings, to symbolize the pillar. See # 3, 4, 6, 9, 16, and 17, in "Dragon", my B & W catalogue.
Best,
Joey
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arnebraat
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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2017, 12:58:26 pm »

Thank you all for reviews and wellcoming comments.
Best regards
Arne
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