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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
April 19, 2018, 12:10:25 pm
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Egyptian bottle

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Author Topic: Egyptian bottle  (Read 323 times)
Rube
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« on: August 16, 2017, 05:56:45 am »

Hi Everyone,

I'm curious about this bottle as well.  The list says "Egyptian".  Was there ever such a thing?
I googled it and came up with a squib in the Henry Hitt book stating that there were bottles found in tombs, but they may have been fakes.  Does anybody know about this?

Cheers,
Rube.


* FullSizeRender Egyptian 1.jpg (92.34 KB, 480x640 - viewed 23 times.)

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* FullSizeRender Egyptian 3.jpg (70.99 KB, 480x640 - viewed 11 times.)

* FullSizeRender Egyptian 4.jpg (74.55 KB, 480x640 - viewed 10 times.)
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Wattana
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2017, 06:05:51 am »

Rube,

It sounds vaguely familiar. If memory serves, the story was later debunked in an issue of Snuff Bottle Review.
Joey can probably throw more light on it.

Tom

PS: This reminds me of one of Joey's stories about being offered a "genuine" coin from Egyptian antiquity which had the date clearly stamped on it......473 BC.   Grin
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 09:17:29 pm by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2017, 08:14:27 am »

Rube,

It sounds vaguely familiar. If memory serves, the story was later debunked in an issue of Snuff Bottle Review.
Joey can probably throw more light on it.

Tom

PS: This reminds me of one of Joey's stories about being offered a "genuine" coin from Egyption antiquity which had the date clearly stamped on it......473 BC.   Grin

 Roll Eyes Grin Very amusing!   
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Joey
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2017, 06:39:25 am »

Dear Rube,

     Yes, the 'Jew Guru' has the answer!  Roll Eyes Shocked Grin
Seriously, though: from the 1840s/1850s, thanks to steamships and serious Western Powers like England, France and Germany enforcing the peace in concert and sometimes control of the Ottoman Empire, people of more modest, though still substantial, means, were able to emulate the seriously rich and go on a grand tour of the Ancient World (The Middle East, including what're now Turkey and Egypt; what's now Israel with the liberated territories; what are still Lebanon and Jordan; and what were till recently Syria and Iraq.), formerly all in the Ottoman Empire.

    Assorted lords and ladies had brought home to the territories of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland souvenirs - antiquities from these ancient civilizations.  So the middle class 'punters' wanted to, as well.

     Whether these late Daoguang/Xianfeng period bottles were made in Jingdezhen to be sold in Egypt as 'genuine antiquities' (they do look a bit like Egyptian Faience pottery), between 1840 and 1855, or between 1865 and 1880 (one doesn't hear of these bottles being brought back after 1880) or were just sold there as being in 'Egyptian taste', they were readily available in the markets of Egypt and were 'seeded' in pyramids, to be 'found' by gullible tourists who then paid a generous 'baksheesh' (tip/bribe) to the 'guide' who enabled them to take home a 'treasure from ancient Egypt'.

      It was a tip for having  'enabled' the tourist to find a 'genuine antiquity'; it was a bribe to convince the 'guide' not to hand the tourist over to the authorities for 'looting'.

     Just as officers in wartime don't 'loot' - they 'liberate'; soldiers loot... Roll Eyes Shocked Wink. In the same way, while  the Aristocracy don't 'loot', they 'acquire';  the 'punters' may be accused of it.

     Best,
Joey
     
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Rube
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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2017, 07:10:25 am »

Joey,
That was an interesting and informative response. My sister has the bottle and I like the coarse texture emulating many centuries of wind blown patina and colors.

The earliest it could have been purchased was in 1929 when my grandfather ended his African trip in Egypt. After attending an international geological conference, he drove a car all the way from CapeTown to Cairo (he said he was the third to complete the journey).  He had picked up a few bottles on his journeys before marrying my grandmother. One bottle he gave to her 9 years before they were married in 1936! But, in reality, the bottle could have been picked up anywhere, anytime.

Cheers,
Rube
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« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2017, 08:46:50 am »

Dear Rube,

      It could have been purchased in the markets of Cairo  at any time, but we get no more reports of snuff bottles found in pyramids after 1880.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2017, 09:51:06 pm »


 After attending an international geological conference, he drove a car all the way from CapeTown to Cairo (he said he was the third to complete the journey). 


Rube,

Your ancestors sure were adventurous! I can believe your grandfather was only the third person to do this. I have a book written by Ewart Grogan, titled "From the Cape to Cairo", published by Thomas Nelson. It includes a preface by Sir Cecil Rhodes, congratulating the author on being the first person (i.e. white man) to traverse the length of Africa from South to North. He started the journey on foot in 1898, taking over two-and-a-half years to reach Cairo. It is an interesting read, if you haven't already read his account.

Regards,
Tom
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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2017, 02:44:41 am »

You all are totally wrong.
The fact that snuff bottles has been found in archaeological excavations in Egypt is just a further prove of the evidence that Egyptians did sail to America well before Columbus Grin Grin Grin Grin.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2017, 05:24:57 am »

Dear Giovanni,

   This post of yours is like the popular Israeli joke about elephants:
Why do elephants paint their toenails red?
To hide in cherry trees.
How do we know it works?
Have you ever seen an elephant in a cherry tree?  Roll Eyes Wink
Best,
Joey



You all are totally wrong.
The fact that snuff bottles has been found in archaeological excavations in Egypt is just a further prove of the evidence that Egyptians did sail to America well before Columbus Grin Grin Grin Grin.
Kind regards
Giovanni

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« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2017, 08:46:10 am »

Tom,

I'm pretty sure my brother has a copy of that book, though, I have not read it myself. 

Cheers,

Rube.
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« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2017, 11:24:19 am »

Dear Rube,

     Tom is right - your grandfather was very adventurous.
Even in 1929, with roads paved and unpaved between Capetown and Cairo;
and being able to drive only through territories ruled by Great Britain (South Africa - Bechuanaland [now Botswana] - Northern Rhodesia [now Zambia] - Tanganyika [now part of Tanzania] - Uganda - Anglo-Egyptian Sudan [now South Sudan and Sudan] - Egypt; it was still quite an undertaking.

    Although the cars were much better built and much sturdier, than those available today; and he and his fellow travellers would have been armed as well as having someone with them who could make minor repairs. And the British were pretty much incorruptible and kept order.

    Do you have his journal from the trip? Most of the people who did stuff like that also kept journals and documented their exploits.

    There  is a wonderful book on one American's love affair with 'old Peking' in the 1920s and 1930s - George Kates' "The Years That Were Fat: The Last of Old China ". I feel especially connected to the author because we've so much in common. Both in love with Chinese art, both Jewish (though I'm observant and his observance was almost nonexistent), both Gay, and both from wealthy families who basically spoiled us (me more; him less  Wink).

    Best,
Joey
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« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2017, 11:30:33 am »

Joey,

Indeed he was! And I  do have his journal from that trip, as well as his scrapbook with his favorite photos documenting the trip.

Cheers,

Rube.
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« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2017, 12:10:04 am »


Indeed he was! And I do have his journal from that trip, as well as his scrapbook with his favorite photos documenting the trip.


Rube, that's wonderful...!
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« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2017, 12:34:26 am »

Dear Rube,
surely worth to be published!
Giovanni
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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2017, 04:13:39 am »

Dear Giovanni,

      You are surely correct. With a bit of annotation and a bit of editing, it could be a serious best-seller.

      If it did not document the fact that by and large, colonialism and especially British colonialism, brought peace and security to huge swathes of territory in Africa and other parts of the globe.

      Sadly, the truth is not appreciated today.
Best,
Joey
 
   
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Rube
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2017, 05:19:15 am »

Tom and Giovanni,

I'm happy to discuss his travels with you further, if you'd like, though, I'd prefer it via direct message.

Joey,

You're right about the truth not being appreciated today, or is it simply forgotten? It's so sad how little
attention is paid to history today (at least in the US schools). 

Cheers,

Rube.
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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2017, 05:33:40 am »

Hi Rube,

I have been following your posts  with great interest and admiration. It is wonderful that you and your family have a personal legacy attatched to your collection that chronicals such travels.  I can only imagine the experiences your grandfather must have had. He must have been a very special person.  Thank you for posting such interesting bottles.

Best regards,

Toni-Lee

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Toni-Lee

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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2017, 06:03:51 am »

Toni-Lee,

Thanks so much for your kind interest.  I feel very fortunate to have such a legacy connected to this collection.
It's a blessing and a curse.  (My wife thinks it's a curse.)  Their generation, having lived through the Great Depression,
saved EVERYTHING!  And, of course, everything has a story attached to it, so, there's no way you can possibly get rid of
anything.  Especially things that have been saved for many generations. I'm experiencing this currently, as I'm on the tail end of a move, and really should streamline a bit.  It's one reason why I've been focusing so much on these bottles of late, because they're small, and don't take up much space.  So, i've been trading other family heirlooms with my siblings for some of these bottles, as a means of consolidation. But regarding this particular question,  I wish that I'd asked more questions when I had the chance.  But, thanks to this Forum, I've learned a lot, which is quite a blessing!  I've stated in the past that my intent is to catalogue my grandmother's collection in it's entirety, as no bottles have been sold, just dispersed amongst family.  And i'll present this to my aunts upon completion.  It's my hope to put this in some kind of historical family narrative, but I haven't worked out the framework as of yet.  I'm still in the process of photographing the bottles.

Cheers,

Rube.

Cheers,
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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2017, 06:22:18 am »

dear Rube,
thank you but, to be clear, my meaning was not that of knowing the story. I meant what Joey understood, that it would be a best seller if it will be published in book.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2017, 04:07:56 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

     I have family (through marriage) from what was Libya, now destroyed by ISIS, and from Abyssinia [today's Ethiopia]; both occupied by Fascist Italy. Both relatives are Jewish, of course. And both say that the best times in those territories for them, were under the Italians' rule.

    Same thing from family and friends from Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria; their best treatment was under French rule.
 
    Best,
Joey
    
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