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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
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Glass Overlay Bottle

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Author Topic: Glass Overlay Bottle  (Read 359 times)
Rube
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« on: June 28, 2017, 08:26:33 am »

Greetings,

I'm beginning the process of cataloging my grandmother's snuff bottles.  I recently traded a blue and white platter with my brother for this green overlay bottle.

I'm calling it a snowflake glass bottle with a green overlay of dragons.  It's an ovoid shaped bottle, measuring 6.1 cm, with a raised oval foot rim, and unfortunately the neck has been filed down.  It has a wide mouth and glass stopper with an ivory collar.  Because of the wide mouth, I'm thinking it's an older  bottle, like late 18th or early 19th century?  Any comments or corrections are most welcome!

This bottle is especially appealing to me because it has snuff residue inside, hinting at its utilitarian nature.  I'll probably post some more overlay bottles in the future, one's which I think are not as old.

Cheers,

Rube.


* FullSizeRender green overlay 3 .jpg .jpeg (454.78 KB, 1758x1318 - viewed 26 times.)

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« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 08:32:06 am by Rube » Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector

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Joey
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2017, 09:39:24 am »

Dear Rube,

     It looks good and may well be late 18th /early 19th C., but you can't use a wide opening from a ground down neck as proof. It is not proof of anything other than the fact that, at that distance from the original mouth (which may or may not have been wide), the opening was wide.

    The carving etc. looks right for the dates you suggested.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 10:46:55 am »

Nice bottle..... IMO, the shorter than usual neck looks "balance" with the fat body.....

Thanks for sharing

Pin
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George
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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 01:31:42 pm »

Interesting bottle... Nice to have a brother to trade with !
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Joey
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 04:17:49 pm »

George,

    I was thinking the same thing!  Roll Eyes Grin

Best,
Joey



Interesting bottle... Nice to have a brother to trade with !
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Rube
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 04:17:23 am »

Joey,

Thanks for your comment.  Pin, I agree with you about the proportion, though I wouldn't mind the neck a whee bit taller.  George,  I'm glad you like it, and my brother J.R. isn't one to trade bottles very often, as  he's quite attached to his little collection, but I suspect he felt this bottle had little value due to it's condition.  I, on the other hand, have always liked it because I thought it was an older bottle that had been used for snuff, and i just love the flowing dragon overlay.  I'm attaching another bottle, the one I picked from my mother's collection in 2004.  I think it isn't as old, but have no clue to it's age.  I'm calling it a snowflake glass bottle with red overlay of carp.  It's an ovoid shaped bottle, measuring 7.4 cm, and has a slightly flared neck and a recessed foot.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Rube.


* FullSizeRender overlay red 1.jpg (88.58 KB, 480x640 - viewed 29 times.)

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« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 07:40:59 pm by Rube » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2017, 04:31:45 pm »

Dear Rube,
 
     You need to trim the pics so that, when expanded, I don't have to move all over the screen to find it, or can only see parts at a time. I have a 21 inch screen. That should be enough to view the whole bottle at one time.

    Let me know when it's be corrected, and I'll be more than happy to give you my opinion.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Rube
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 07:42:31 pm »

Oops, 

A bit technically challenged, I think I modified the images, hope they're easier to view.

Cheers,

Rube.
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2017, 02:17:09 am »

Hi Rube,

It's a little hard to see from your pictures but I'm wondering if that is more of a water dragon of some kind than a carp. The face seems too complicated to be a carp.

I have a overlay bottle with a carp on one side and lotus flower on the other which is elongated like yours but mine is on a more normal raised footrim so looks less balanced in shape as yours has the overlay continuing to form the foot so is broader at the base which looks better to my eye. It adds more visual weight to the base than on mine.

Regards, Adrian.


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* P7010622.jpg (84.81 KB, 825x583 - viewed 14 times.)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 02:26:36 am by forestman » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2017, 07:13:11 am »

You may be right about the carp Adrian, but what a beautiful bottle/stopper/spoon you have there !
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Rube
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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2017, 08:15:08 am »

Adrian,

I never thought of the possibility of it being a dragon, I just assumed it to be a carp because of the appendage coming off its head, and it appears to be in a basket.  The obverse is the same as the reverse. Could this be that the carp is leaping over the gate and becoming a dragon? On the other hand, I agree with George, your bottle is fantastic, I especially like how the swirls in the glass add to the dynamics of the action! My bottle appears to have a convex base rim, which I'm hoping helps give it some age.
How do you date your bottle?

Cheers,

Rube.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 08:38:23 am by Rube » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2017, 02:41:24 pm »

Hi George and Rube,

Thanks for the comments. I do like my carp bottle, the clearness of the overlay and it's lack of contrast to the base bottle appeal. If the water the carp is leaping from continued to form the base and gave weight to the base like Rube's bottle then I would like it more although the foot rim is very well formed which I admire.

I didn't realise that European dragons were associated with water as are Asian dragons and the word dragon comes from Greek meaning serpent of huge size, water snake or seafish. I always associate European dragons as winged, fire breathing creatures that are considered bad which Asian dragons aren't. Asian dragons also seem to have the same "feelers" on their nose as carp whereas European dragons don't.

A carp leaping the dragon gate to become a dragon would signify good luck in the civil service exam.

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2017, 03:42:25 pm »

Dear Rube,

 PERFECT! Thanx,
Joey


Oops, 

A bit technically challenged, I think I modified the images, hope they're easier to view.

Cheers,

Rube.
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2017, 03:29:24 am »

Hi Rube,

In terms of dating my bottle I'm going for 1730-1800 and getting ready to be shot down in flames  Cheesy

I'm basing that on a bottle in the Marakovic collection which is the only resource I've found that gives neck opening measurements and my bottle has a wide opening of 1 cm.

The closest bottle I could find had the same base glass colour including specks of darker material in it and the same overlay colour although without the swirls of darker colour in it. It is a very similar height and has a wide neck opening. It is wider towards it's base than mine (as most are) but the closest I could come to the shape of mine was a 18th Century Cloisonne bottle.

 http://www.e-yaji.com/Marakovic/photo.php?photo=2218&exhibition=3&ee_lang=eng&u=4,169

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2017, 03:50:35 am »

Dear Adrian,

    I'd date your bottle the same way. If you look at #25 in my 1987 catalogue, you will see one with black swirled in the blue overlay, and an 18th C. dating.
And great early stopper & spoon.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2017, 04:43:16 am »

Dear Joey,

What  Huh I got it right !

I have found a bottle in the Crane collection which is a three colour overlay with a "streaky" emerald green (which is the same as mine) as one of three colours of the overlay. It is given as having a wide neck although doesn't mention if the opening is wide as well. That is dated as 1740-1780.

Is your catalogue on the forum as I see it mentioned a number of times but haven't seen it yet.

I was hoping I would win a very beautiful shibayama "bling" Inro to show you when we meet but I let it go to a telephone bidder when bidding got out of my comfort zone but have regretted it since as it was the nicest I have seen come up.

Could I ask if you would be kind enough to give a date for my "Japenese" dragon overlay bottle which I recently posted which has a good old stopper and spoon.

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2017, 07:11:10 am »

Adrian,

Nice job!  Another reference that shows neck openings and highlights a wonderful collection is the book by Robert Kleiner, White Wings Collection, it's one of the few books that I have.  And speaking of dragon overlays, there are two in the collection which are fabulous, as the dragon on one side appears to be looking right at you, as if it wants to slither right off the bottle!

Cheers,

Rube.
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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2017, 03:48:08 pm »


Dear Adrian,

     Is 'clearness' like 'clarity'?   Shocked Roll Eyes Grin
And you are English...  Grin
Best,
Joey

Hi George and Rube,

Thanks for the comments. I do like my carp bottle, the clearness of the overlay and it's lack of contrast to the base bottle appeal. If the water the carp is leaping from continued to form the base and gave weight to the base like Rube's bottle then I would like it more although the foot rim is very well formed which I admire.

I didn't realise that European dragons were associated with water as are Asian dragons and the word dragon comes from Greek meaning serpent of huge size, water snake or seafish. I always associate European dragons as winged, fire breathing creatures that are considered bad which Asian dragons aren't. Asian dragons also seem to have the same "feelers" on their nose as carp whereas European dragons don't.

A carp leaping the dragon gate to become a dragon would signify good luck in the civil service exam.

Regards, Adrian.
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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