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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 23, 2018, 02:27:00 am
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Cinnabar bottle

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pookles
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2017, 06:33:07 am »

Dear Joey,

Sounds great! I will bring this SB along and will obviously be great to see your bottle. Just looking at your London dates and the 21st July I may have a wedding to go to (I'll message you), but the other 2 days should be fine. And, if Adrian is inclined to come too - more the merrier - be great to meet and have a bottle conference Smiley

Best
Luke
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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2017, 07:26:19 am »

Dear Joey and Luke,

I'm on for the first South of England Snuff Bottle meet up. Where can we get good dim sum as it seems a requirement for snuff bottle meets ?

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2017, 11:47:30 am »

Hi Luke,

I've searched with very little success for anything describing cinnabar lacquer snuff bottle production techniques and what I have learnt has come from numerous books on both Chinese and Japanese lacquer works. If you find anything specific to snuff bottle's I'd be interested to be pointed to the information.

If you scroll down to the cinnabar lacquer bottles in this link you can zoom in to see all the detail which is a good resource to call on (for all bottle types).

http://www.e-yaji.com/Marakovic/list.php?exhibition=3&u=4,200

Regards, Adrian.


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Joey
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2017, 12:20:42 pm »

Luke & Adrian,

   Wonderful!
   SCREW DIMSUM!
   You'll be my guests on Wed. evening or Thurs. lunch or dinner for Peking Duck, etc. in Ken Lo's Memories of China on Ebury St.!   
   I will have a guest from Israel, Dr. Rachel Barkay. She is an archaeologist and expert in Nabataean coinage (we are both attending a conference in Oxford, 17-19.July).

   I will bring my two lacquer bottles: the cinnabar & teadust; the lacquer on silk imitating gold-splashed bronze, and my embellished jet (bling) bottle, I got in March in NYC from the Barron IV sale
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2017, 03:49:32 pm »

Dear Joey,

That's a very kind offer. As it's a lacquer themed meet I might have to bring an inro as I only have my very modern cinnabar bottle !

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2017, 04:21:26 pm »

Dear Adrian,

    I LOVE Inro!
I have a friend in Chicago/Honolulu, Ed Lewis. He's got a great collection of Japanese lacquer. And the Ticotin Japanese Museum in Haifa, Israel has a very good collection.
I've bought a few pieces of Japanese lacquer myself, but no Inro.

  When I was visiting Giovanni one year, we went to visit a couple of Italian members of the ICSBS in La Spezia. While there, after lunch and after viewing their collection {Atomo Collection}, they took us to an antique fair. I bought a medium size (6-8 inch diameter) plate, cinnabar on porcelain, carved with a flower head, Taisho period (ca.1910-1935), for serving sweets at a formal tea ceremony.

   By the way, THE BEST casual street/mall antique fairs I've ever been to, are in Italy! And I am including USA, Canada, UK, Ireland, and Belgium. Ireland was the worst [I'm sorry, a portrait of Elvis on velvet does NOT constitute an antique in my opinion! Shocked Roll Eyes Grin].

   Wonderful! See you both in London. If you are bringing 'plus-ones', or if other Forum members are in London 19.July for dinner/20.July either lunch or dinner, please let me know so I can order enough Peking Duck. I did not think there was a difference between sliced and shredded duck meat, but it is day and night.

   Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

pookles
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« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2017, 04:18:33 am »

Dear Joey,

Amazing, it's on! That is very kind of you and really looking forward to meeting you, Adrian and others. And also, viewing some of your authentic lacquer examples!

Dear Adrian,

Looking forward to seeing the inro. This is my only lacquer piece too but will be interesting to get yours and Joey's thoughts.

Thanks, but I also use that same resource to compare bottles. Very useful! There's a cinnabar SB in that collection, which has a Qianlong mark on the bottom and is said may be one of only 2 known examples that have a credible mark. I must admit I'm curious/sceptical, but I don't think the article goes into detail on that point.

I was considering buying the organics volume on A Treasury of Chinese Snuff Bottles (maybe this has info?), but I can't find a dedicated book on lacquered Chinese snuff bottles. I'm going to have a look through some ICSBS journals to see if any are relevant... I'll let you know if I find anything...

Best,
Luke
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« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2017, 06:19:05 am »

Dear Luke,

     My pleasure. But I'm hoping yours is an authentic cinnabar lacquer as well. The question will be, how to restore it, if it is.

    Meanwhile, I just got some new beehives, and it was amazing watching my neighbour 'install' the new swarms that arrived 2/3 weeks ago, into them. One swarm was in a tree up my yard, and another in the barn, near the tree. He drove the swarm 4 miles away, and then delivered them right to the new beehives, in the orchard part of my walled garden.

   It seems bees do not fly more than 3 miles radius from their home. So if you go 4 miles, it cancels out their 'homing' ability, and it 'reboots' to the new hive.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2017, 09:38:16 am »

Dear Joey & Adrian,

Just wanted to say what a pleasure it was to meet up with you both and the ladies and have a proper chat with follow collectors, which was great for me as friends and families eyes usually glaze over fairly quickly! Also, some of the bottles passed around were fantastic - your cinnabar bottle especially appealed to me Joey and Adrian your inro's were really interesting...

Thanks again Joey for hosting all of us.

Best,
Luke

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« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2017, 09:49:31 am »

Dear Luke (and Adrian),

     It was my distinct pleasure, though as usual, I ate too much. But at least the food was very good. I don't mind gaining a bit of weight, when the food gives such pleasure.

     Though it bums me if I gain weight eating food that's not tasty. Please don't get me wrong - I LOVE Chili Cheese Fries (not kosher, but possibly sublime in the right hands!  Roll Eyes Grin), etc.
     And Charll saw me down KFC, Macdonalds and Burger King (or was it White Castle, Charll?) on our road trip from Portland OR to his home in northern CA (9+ hrs on the road), and then pizza once we got there.

    Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2017, 09:51:43 am »

Dear Luke and Adrian,

I'm glad that you finally met up with Joey. He's such an amazing personality and knowledgeable person. He's always got something interesting to share with his friends. We get to learn so much from him! Wink

Best,
Samson
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Samson - a young new collector desiring knowledge
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« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2017, 01:07:52 pm »

Hi Luke,

It was a pleasure to meet you too and I will be joining the ICSBS so may see you later in the year if you are planning to get to the convention.

I didn't really get the time to handle your cinnabar bottle which I had wanted to do so I could have an in depth look at it.

Joey's cinnabar bottle is a beauty and it's weight surprised me, far heavier than I was expecting.


Hi Samson,

It was great to meet Joey, a very generous and welcoming host to what was a very good meal. Hope to meet more forum members over time.

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2017, 02:29:30 pm »

Dear Adrian,
 
    I never noticed how heavy it is, but now that you've pointed it out, it is quite obvious.
Another Palace Workshops bottle I had, which was cinnabar lacquer on a copper body, and also quite heavy, was interesting, because it was cut down to the copper, and then the copper was incised with diaper patterns and gilded.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2017, 06:04:54 am »

Dear Joey & Adrian,

It was a delicious meal and nothing wrong with a healthy appetite! Haha. I'm also partial to the odd KFC - I'd recommend the mighty bucket for one, but it should come with a warning that moving around afterwards is difficult if you manage the whole bucket!

Adrian - yes shame you didn't have a good look at my one. Although, Joey and Susan seemed to agree it was a genuine cinnabar. Susan did comment that she thought it was 19th, not 18th of course (that was Bonham's evaluation), which was also my thinking. Yeah, I think joining the society is really useful - you get pamphlets, members directory etc and discounts for the conventions... should soon pay for itself really...

Best,
Luke
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« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2017, 10:07:05 am »

Dear Luke,

      I wouldn't go so far as to say that it soon pays for itself, but I have found the conventions to have had a profoundly positive effect on my learning curve, not only vis a vis snuff bottles, but also socially. And most collectors are really nice people, too!
      Please don't get me thinking about KFC - I have very dear friends visiting from today till Sun. morning, an Orthodox rabbi presently based in Stockholm Sweden with his wife, and 4 children; and I'm on an Orthodox Kosher diet till Sun.morn. I will go 'pig out' (you should excuse the term Grin) after they leave.



Dear Joey & Adrian,

It was a delicious meal and nothing wrong with a healthy appetite! Haha. I'm also partial to the odd KFC - I'd recommend the mighty bucket for one, but it should come with a warning that moving around afterwards is difficult if you manage the whole bucket!

Adrian - yes shame you didn't have a good look at my one. Although, Joey and Susan seemed to agree it was a genuine cinnabar. Susan did comment that she thought it was 19th, not 18th of course (that was Bonham's evaluation), which was also my thinking. Yeah, I think joining the society is really useful - you get pamphlets, members directory etc and discounts for the conventions... should soon pay for itself really...

Best,
Luke
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2017, 04:48:29 pm »

Luke,
I've decided I'm going to join next year, and I plan on attending the 50th convention in Baltimore. Only sorry I didn't join a few years ago when it was in Chicago.
Cheers,
Rube
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« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2017, 09:09:08 pm »

Dear Rube,

     That was a great convention! And there is a really good Chinese restaurant across the street (N. Michigan Ave.) from the InterContinental, which was the convention venue in 2015.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2018, 05:25:32 am »

I thought I would add this to this post as I mentioned to Luke in it that there were times when a single layer of lacquer was painted over bottles.

This was a case of listening to Joey's advice, don't look for what is right, look for what is wrong and reject a bottle if one detail is wrong even if everything else looks right. In this case I went ahead because it interested me and was cheap and I hope is an example of what to look out for.

I saw this bottle on ebay as the auction was about to end with no bidders. There is a split in the neck and resin doesn't tend to split, there were places where a layer was peeling off and resin doesn't peel. The sides showed no evidence of a join from a mould and the colour and shine weren't like typical resin. I did see what could have been air bubble holes towards the base which should have been the one thing to make me reject it but the other aspects were not typical resin and the low price meant I would risk it and use it as a "learning" bottle.

My picture shows a lot more detail than the ebay pictures and you can see that a layer of what could be lacquer but is more likely some paint has been applied and is flaking off. The paint has a shine to it that resin doesn't have as you can see from where the paint has flaked off.

What was interesting when looking at it through a loupe was that there are a few small unpainted areas where the moulding has picked up the detail of the original bottles layers of lacquer. I haven't managed to capture this in a photo as yet and may not be able to but it is a case of needing to be aware, what may look like evidence of layers of lacquer may just be evidence of how moulding materials can pick up the minutest details.

My reading on lacquer shows that there were genuine carved cinnabar lacquer items that had a layer of lacquer applied after the carving was done, something which could hide eveidence of the layers of lacquer. It's thought that this was done some time after the item was made, it may have been to "refresh" the colour as cinnabar lacquer darkens if left in sunlight but that is my opinion as no particular reason for the layer of lacquer being applied was given in the books.

We had a post by a poster Artadorned about a cinnabar bottle which had some peeling of a surface layer which I didn't think was genuine but having now had this bottle in hand I can see that some makers were taking their cast resin bottles the extra mile by adding a layer of paint/lacquer over the resin.

It can be very hard to know if a bottle is genuine carved layered lacquer, especially just from pictures so beware, check all the details.

Regards, Adrian.






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« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2018, 12:55:04 pm »

Dear Adrian,

     I can see why this bottle would confuse. It certainly looks 'right' to me even in your photo.
That's why I always try to give a caveat, when commenting on photos.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2018, 04:51:45 am »

Dear Joey,

You need to play "spot the ball". There are numerous little balls of resin you can see.  Grin

Regards, Adrian.
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