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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
September 19, 2018, 02:18:05 pm
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Help with artists please.

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Author Topic: Help with artists please.  (Read 351 times)
forestman
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« on: June 20, 2017, 08:18:26 am »

I have a few nice IP bottles from a collector called Bernard Buckman that I will post in the hope of identifying the artists.

This is the first. It is natural crystal with inclusions although they don't detract from the paintings. It is 54mm high and the stopper has been glued, probably because the spoon is loose.

The painting style has a Zhou Leyuan/Ye family feel about it, especially in the man on the boat.

An input would be appreciated.

Regards, Adrian.


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forestman
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2017, 08:37:37 am »

This might help.


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AntPeople
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2017, 08:59:29 am »

The artist is Zhang BaoTian 张葆田
 
Not a bad bottle IMO....... only concern is the condition is not so good...

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

forestman
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2017, 12:39:25 pm »

Thank you very much Pin.

I think it's snuff stains behind the signature so they may be able to be cleaned to some degree. Just need to get the stopper off.

Here's number 2 from the same collector.

Quite distinct style of painting the rocks and mountains and very precise in colouring the foliage on the trees. The style of painting on the reverse is also different to that on the front and might be a dry brush technique ?

Again, any help would be very welcome.

Regards, Adrian.


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Joey
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2017, 02:20:10 pm »

Dear Adrian,

      I think Pin was referring to what looks like damage to the neck rim on this quartz bottle. The bottle reminds me of the quartz bottles used by Gan Xuan, ca.1800-1830,
and other Early Period artists.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Steven
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2017, 02:25:22 pm »

Dear Adrian,

Thanks for sharing the two nice bottles!

I am with Joey and Pin on the first Zhang Baotian bottle, nice one, but the condition might be a concern. Be careful  when you try to get the stopper off, Don't let water get into the bottle.

I like the the second bottle better, especially the B side of painting, very vivid brushes. It was painted by a Ye Bengqi's student Wang Simin in early 70s.

Best,

Steven
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George
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2017, 02:34:27 pm »

Both are wonderful Adrian..

I like the Zhang Baotian bottle the most.. Even with the minor condition issues..

Wang Simin is a new name for me..  Really nice paintings..

Congratulations on both !
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forestman
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2017, 03:25:25 pm »

Thanks to you all for the information and comments.

There is a chip out of the neck on the first bottle and the adhesive cleaner doesn't seem to be doing much in terms of  breaking down the glue.

Here's number 3 from the same collector.

Regards, Adrian.


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Joey
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2017, 04:35:37 pm »

Dear Adrian,

     I was just looking again, and realised I'd not commented on the similarity to
Ye Zhongsan subjects. You are correct - it is very close to Ye subjects and to Ye style, following Zhou Leyuan subjects.
Well spotted!
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

bokaba
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2017, 09:02:55 pm »

Hi Adrian,

Here is one of the Zhou Leyuan bottles (along with a painting) featuring a river boatman from Joey's book, Worlds in a Bottle.

Brian


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Brian
forestman
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2017, 04:15:20 am »

I see from reading about Zhang Bao Tian that his bottles are somewhat rare with about 30 signed bottles known.

He was considered the first artist to take advantage of Zhou Leyuan's success in creating a lot of interest in inside painted snuff bottles and he worked from 1891 to 1904.

He also produced some bottles with Zhou Leyuan signatures although they were easy to tell as his as his calligraphy is not the best and he didn't copy his style or palette.

He was considered to work purely commercially and was unusual in that his painting didn't seem to evolve and get better over time and his better works were felt to be his earlier ones.

I think mine is dated 1899.
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cshapiro
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2017, 08:52:10 am »

Adrian, congratulations on the Zhang Baotian bottle!
It looks like you could get it cleaned up and it will be a very nice addition to your collection!
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Cathy
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2017, 09:28:08 am »

Hi Cathy,

More luck than judgement as I clearly didn't know there was a Zhang Bao Tian bottle in the lot although I had a sense of having seen very similar paintings to his and the other IP bottles in the lot looked interesting as well.

The auction description was for a lot of eleven snuff bottles but it only listed ten. In fact there were 23 bottles in the lot and the 13 not mentioned were more interesting to me as there were eight IP bottles and five porcelain ones, including two spade bottles.

I pointed out their error to them and expected it to be rectified in the actual auction but they still called it as a collection of eleven bottles.

I wasn't wanting to go as high as I did but was competing with a Lady who was present at the auction and ended up bidding ten times the (admittedly) low estimate. But 23 bottles at less than a 100 a bottle doesn't seem too bad.

Regards, Adrian.
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forestman
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2017, 09:41:49 am »

Hi Cathy,

Forgot to add that the 2nd bottle that Steven very kindly identified as being painted by Wang Simin in the early 70's is a bottle I would have said was older due to the polishing surface of it so similar to your Teasing the Crane bottle.

I don't know when they stopped polishing with iron discs and wetted yellow sand and other ground substances but it does leave a very distinct polished surface.

Regards, Adrian.
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cshapiro
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2017, 07:03:03 pm »

Adrian, sounds like you made out like a bandit! The first bottle alone is probably worth what you paid for the lot. Would be very interested to see the others - especially the spade porcelains. Wink

I have removed many glued on tops by now and it's not easy! What I do is use a stiff bristled artist brush, dip it in acetone (fingernail polish remover), and brush around the seam. It takes patience, but eventually the bristles will work into the seam. I usually hold the bottle upside down, so once it does break free it doesn't get any liquid in the bottle.

Once you have the top off, you could use some q-tips to lightly brush off the old stains. You can do a before and after shot! Bet it will be beautiful! Wink 
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2017, 08:04:53 pm »

The bottle reminds me of the quartz bottles used by Gan Xuan, ca.1800-1830,
and other Early Period artists.
Best,
Joey

For your reference Adrian.. Joey makes a great point, and here is an article that includes quite a few Gan Xuan bottles to compare for you. It really is a very nice bottle..
http://www.e-yaji.com/books/articles/lingnan/index.html#2
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forestman
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2017, 08:31:26 am »

Hi Cathy,

I'll try some nail varnish remover as it might be safer than trying to ease the stopper off with a scalpel blade which is what I have done with other bottles.

Here's another one from the same collection with a crane theme !

Shandong overlay although much more worked than normal with the wheel cut marks very clear on the round framing to the overlay. There is one more oval bottle with the same work to the overlay on Bills site.

The artist is Xue Shao Fu who painted between 1918-1938. Height is 65 mm.

Regards, Adrian.


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forestman
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2017, 03:53:03 pm »

This is the 5th and last signed bottle from the same collection.

It's signed by Xue Chengcai.

I bought a lot of 23 bottles from the same collector. I've just found out the 8 IP bottles in the lot were first sold by the same auction house in November 2016 for 110 with an estimate of 100-200 with artists identified as Xue Chengcai, Si Min and Le Tongke (the 3rd bottle I posted for which the artist wasn't identified). The Zhang Baotian was not identified.

When the 8 IP bottles were resold as part of the 23 bottles in the lot I bought there were no artists identified.

So someone bought a Zhang Baotian, a Xue Chengcai, a Xue Shaofu, a Wang Simin, a Le Tongke and 3 other probably middle period bottles for 110 including some Chinese silver hallmarked stoppers and wasn't happy.

Regards, Adrian.


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Joey
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2017, 05:31:32 pm »

Dear Adrian,

     The artist is Zhang Baotian, not Zang Baotian. And he's a good artist at his best.

     The 'last' bottle you posted, is signed by some guy named 'Bei Jing'! Odd name for someone.  Roll Eyes Grin
     Seriously though, it is very crudely painted.
My Xue Chengcai (which Steven kindly posted for me somewhere) seems a lot more sophisticated. But since mine is ca. 1965-1970, and yours might be at the start of his career, 30 years earlier (if he learned from Xue Shaofu? If the latter was indeed his father?), they could well be by the same hand.

   But you really had a lucky break. Congratulations.

Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

forestman
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2017, 01:34:32 am »

Dear Joey,

If I had bought the 8 IP bottles for 110 then that would really have been lucky and I would have preferred to have bought them without the other 15 bottles that came with them.

I've added H's so Zang is back to Zhang.

I posted the bottles in order of my preference for them and the Xue Chengcai is indeed very crudely done and has little appeal to me. It may well be an early work of his because there is a sense of how his painting style developed  in it as his better works have a sense of Ye family about the way he painted the figures.

Regards, Adrian.
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