General information about the Site

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, evaluating, identifying, researching, appraisals, and much more.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Steven shared this beautiful Ma Shaoxian bottle

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector

The International Chinese Snuff Bottle Society


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
December 17, 2017, 03:25:39 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Downloads Gallery Staff List Login Register  

Batman and Robin

Poll
Question: t8BzF6
tQzQRCNUodhfIV
aMVrHcSsubH
rXWaYxHVxFlh
OdPYLvhxzLPuztxb
jNVmzRiJIQuxGPjnlxZ

Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Batman and Robin  (Read 346 times)
cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« on: June 15, 2017, 10:05:39 pm »

I promised to post these several days ago - but got sidetracked.
These two bottles are from the same Florida collector from whom I got the incised faceted bottle.

I have named them Batman and Robin Wink

And I have questions! There are three bat bottles listed in "Chinese Snuff Bottles of the Silica or Quartz Group" but they all have monkey faces, not this more stylized face. They also are all placed on the bottle at an angle, not straight on as this one is. So I am wondering if this bottle would be classified as a "bat bottle?"

And then I don't even know where to start with questions about Robin! Has anyone seen anything like him? Ideas on age? Pin says he is Suan Ni - the fifth son of the Dragon King.

Finally, I am sorry to be hogging the forum lately with all my posts - so I promise to stop hogging the board after this post and give others a chance to get a word in edgewise!












« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 09:56:11 am by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy

Social Buttons

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10419



View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2017, 10:37:10 pm »



Finally, I am sorry to be hogging the forum lately with all my posts - so I promise to stop hogging the board after this post and give others a chance to get a word in edgewise!



Your not hogging at all ... Your bottles are a real joy to see, and thrilled that you share them with us !

I can not answer your question about Robin... Hopefully someone can ..

Loving your bottles Cathy !
Report Spam   Logged

Jungle Jas
Full Member
***
Posts: 125


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2017, 04:20:53 am »

Two nice bottles Cathy, my personal preference is Robin. Thanks for sharing. Wink
Report Spam   Logged
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8594


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2017, 05:15:45 am »

Both bottles are very well made, but sadly, totally modern.

    I owned the bat bottle in pale brown quartz, illustrated on p.80, #208 in the Silica & Quartz book, from Oct.1980 to 1993 (#39 in my 1987 catalogue). It was from the Galia Baylin collection prior to the 1980 Sotheby's NYC auction.

   
   
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

forestman
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 553


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2017, 04:27:38 am »

In all normal circumstances it would be Batman every time but in this instance it's Robin.

Regards, Adrian.
Report Spam   Logged

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2017, 08:53:04 am »

Dear Joey, if these are modern then somebody please tell me where I can buy more of them!!!
I would buy Batman and Robin's for all my friends and family - they would make the most wonderful gifts ever! And would probably turn more people on to snuff bottle collecting. Wink

I was hoping to hear from Tom on these as well to get his opinion!

Jungle Jas and Adrian, a good choice - the workmanship on Robin is unlike anything I have ever seen. It is a spectacular bottle! And look at how well hollowed he is! 




« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 09:01:12 am by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
AntPeople
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 833



View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2017, 11:56:02 am »

I do have a monkey face bat bottle.... will post it when I get a chance..

Pin
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 11:57:38 am by AntPeople » Report Spam   Logged

五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8594


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2017, 07:11:23 pm »

Try googling "modern carved quartz snuff bottles to buy". I'm sure some enterprising
person from the PRC will be in touch...
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Steven
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3961



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2017, 07:41:41 pm »

I have  to say that I am with Joey those two bottles are modern .You might not know how many craftsmans out there in China who can make wonderful stone bottles better than this. How many these kind of bottles you want? I can be the middle man. Grin : Cheesy Wink
Report Spam   Logged

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2017, 08:34:15 pm »

I have been googling looking for anything like them since I got them, and can't find anything.

So Steven please show me links to some examples.
Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
Steven
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3961



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2017, 10:18:27 pm »

Dear Cathy,

If you can't find the same examples, it doesn't mean that those bottles are right and old, There is no connection between them. I have a quite few of bottles I can share with you that they are one kind of bottles themselves, but they are totally modern.  So the way that you judging bottles were wrong. You should look the bottles themselves. There are some good signs for the first bottle, like the mouth and foot  and well done, but you need to see more signs which are not right, for example how the bat was craved, the decoration of the other side, the traditional chinese art have to follow something, the desecration won't come out from nowhere.


I remember George shared some wonderful info regarding the carving of Jade with us recently.  read through it, it might also help.

Please don't take the some of our negative comments as offense. I believe that after 5 years, when you look back those posts, you will know notice that you learned more from those negative comments.

Best,

Steven

attached Pls find some modern bottles which has much better quality than what you have over there, If you want to commission some batman bottles I would love to connect you with the craftman.




 


* wal.jpg (51.37 KB, 1296x640 - viewed 35 times.)

* wal2.jpg (47.86 KB, 1252x906 - viewed 28 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10419



View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2017, 10:30:15 pm »



attached Pls find some modern bottles which has much better quality than what you have over there, If you want to commission some batman bottles I would love to connect you with the craftman.




 

I will remember this Steven.. I have another bottle being commissioned and thought real hard about finding an extra special bottle.. But turns out the quartz one being used is real nice..

But maybe next time..

The bottles you shared are stunning !

Been really educational following along here..   I can see how these are modern also Cathy.  Steven really went into great detailed, and valuable information..

Still beautiful pieces ! 
Report Spam   Logged

AntPeople
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 833



View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2017, 11:31:13 pm »

Monkey Face bat bottle.....



Pin
Report Spam   Logged

五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2017, 12:38:12 am »

Pin, that's a beautiful bottle - thanks for sharing.

But if what Steven is saying is correct - then how do we know it's not modern too?
Unless you have provenance all the way back to when it was made, then chances are it's also modern since it can apparently be so easily duplicated.

Steven, the bottles you shared are nice, but they are simple designs. There is skill involved, but very little artistry.

I can see where my bat bottle could be replicated by a modern artist. There isn't much artistry involved.
But replicating Robin or Pin's bat bottle would be something altogether different. It would take more than skill - it would take an artist.  It also took inspiration to come up with the design.

I realize there are artists out there now who could duplicate Robin. But at what cost? The time and effort involved would be so significant that I don't think they would be able to charge enough to recoup their time.

If however, there are artists this skilled willing to work for dirt cheap, then for me it becomes a question of what's the point? 

If every single bottle out of stone can be duplicated - then they are all worthless and therefore not worth collecting unless you have rock solid provenance to go with your rock.

I'm aggravated because there seems to be no focus on the beauty, the art form, no appreciation for individuality. Bottles must be carbon copies of something known and even then there are claims that it's fake. Apparently the value of a bottle only depends on how old it is. That is really discouraging.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 01:24:15 am by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
Steven
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3961



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2017, 01:34:50 am »

Dear Cathy,

Please take close look at the carving of two Bat's wings on two different bottles, you might be able to find out why I said the carving on your bottle is not right.

Altho I have not seen the details of the carving of the bottle Pin shared, but the overall feeling looks right to me.

I have never said your bottles were made recently,  it could be 20-30 yrs old. Do you know what is the average income of a family in China back to 30 years ago. I would say less than $500, I mean its annual income for the whole family, Do you still think its not worth time and effort to make something look artistry by western's eyes.

The modern bottles I shared will cost roughly $2000.00 or even more, since the materials are more expensive now, and in order to make any this quality bottles, lots of time and labor need to be involved. the labor cost is 10 times higher than 30 yrs ago.

Sorry that you feel discouraging because we are focus on the date of the bottles, If you stated it as a modern bottle, then we would more focus on the beauty of the bottle itself.

I am actually not against modern bottles, but we are on a  snuff bottle Forum, I thought people want to know the date of their bottles, plus the value, If we don't know the date, how can we put the value on? the antiques have their artistry value plus the historical value while the modern ones only have artistry value. And I thought that you want to know the truth of the bottles not only want to  hear the praise, if we all have positive comments, how can you learn from the mistakes?
 

Steven
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 02:53:03 am by Steven » Report Spam   Logged

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2017, 12:20:38 pm »

Dear Steven,

First, Happy Father's Day (if this applies to you). Since you are not in the US, you probably don't celebrate this holiday but thought I would mention it anyway.

I have taken all pictures of Robin offline because I don't want anyone to copy it.

I have tried to be as objective as possible on everything you have said about all of my bottles - the DEZ, the dating of the XCC bottles, the possibility that Batman is modern, but I am drawing the line at Robin. I don't believe he is modern. I think making him required the talent and time only afforded to those working under commission. I have been studying the old statues of Nuan Si and think I am on the right track. See the roof ornaments from the forbidden city.

So far, the proof just isn't there for me that this was made in the last 20-30 years. However, there is proof that statues of this kind were made earlier, and it makes sense to me that bottles would be commissioned to represent the sons of the dragon.

So on this point without more convincing proof, I cannot agree with you - and I don't consider buying him a mistake.

http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2016/10/27/34490851.html

http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2017/02/26/34983508.html

From the Liao dynasty: https://www.artsofasianet.com/editorial/2002/sep_oct.php


« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 01:11:57 pm by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
Rube
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Posts: 394


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2017, 01:02:27 pm »

Another interesting thread leading to lots of provocative discussion.

Per usual, it leads me to ask another dumb question.

Steven,

I guess I'll direct it to you, since you've mentioned a familiarity with modern craftsmen.
How are modern bottles being produced today?  Are CNC's used?  Are 3D lasers used to measure and transfer information from older bottles?  Then fine details finished by craftsmen? 

Thanks,

Rube.


« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 08:35:42 pm by Rube » Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10419



View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2017, 01:03:55 pm »



So far, the proof just isn't there for me that this was made in the last 20-30 years. However, there is proof that statues of this kind were made earlier, and it makes sense to me that bottles would be commissioned to represent the sons of the dragon.

So on this point without more convincing proof, I cannot agree with you - and I don't consider buying him a mistake.


Not sure why you removed the pics of Robin, but by examining the carving maybe we can see some grinding/abrasive clues that will convince it carved Late 20th century.

Report Spam   Logged

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8594


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2017, 01:09:02 pm »

Steven lives in Plano, TX, and is a father of two.
HAPPY FATHER'S DAY, STEVEN!
And any other fathers out there.
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Steven
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3961



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2017, 01:16:36 pm »

Dear Cathy,

Thank you for your greeting! we do celebrate father's day in China.

And I am glad that you have done so much research on the subject matter, well done. But copying an 1000 yrs old status doesn't make your bottle 100 yrs old.  Please look close on the carving of your bottles, compare with the carving on the old bottles, also compare the carving on relatively new bottles,  you should be tell eventually.

There are so many factors to be considered in order to  judge a snuff bottle, if one or two factors are right doesn't make the bottle right.

Yes, Put the bottle away for a few of yrs, you might agree with me on what I have said above by the time.

Steven
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 01:19:52 pm by Steven » Report Spam   Logged

Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal