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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
April 19, 2018, 12:08:30 pm
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Christmas in June!

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Question: m3ECl
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wszfWepsjlEYzTADv - 0 (0%)
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Author Topic: Christmas in June!  (Read 437 times)
cshapiro
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« on: June 10, 2017, 05:08:11 pm »

Wanted to share this! Beautiful tiny tiny faceted bottle. It is just 3.1 cm high, and has the Qianlong reign mark etched into the bottom!


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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2017, 07:53:38 pm »

We recently had a discussion about a similar bottle.. I would like to see sharper corners/edges to the faceting, but others seem to think slightly rounded is ok..

The wide mouth is lovely...

Are those abrasive marks around the lower part of the neck just above the shoulders ?
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AntPeople
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2017, 07:56:09 pm »

Nice bottle Cathy.... I always like these little bottles but have none in my collection so far.....

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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

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cshapiro
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2017, 08:08:23 pm »

Thanks Pin and George!

George I don't see any abrasive marks - I think it's just reflected light - just my bad photography

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« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 08:10:21 pm by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2017, 05:03:53 am »

Wow! Congratulations Cathy! Looks like a beautiful example...

Where did you pick this one up from?

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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2017, 07:27:11 am »

Hi Cathy,

What a great bottle. Love the color. Congrats!

Regards,

Toni-Lee
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2017, 10:58:33 am »

Thanks Luke and Toni-Lee!

Toni-Lee the color is pretty when it is in sunlight, but is much darker in the shade (like in the last picture where I show the mouth)
and Luke I very much lucked out on getting this one. This is the second time I have run into a second generation selling off the bottles of their fathers. This time in Florida.
I am going to ask if it's ok to say his name because I believe he was an ICSBS member.

I also bought some rock crystal and glass bottles I am very excited about too. I will post them soon!
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Cathy
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2017, 10:38:34 am »

Interested to hear who you bought the bottles off and to see your other recent purchases Cathy! A very interesting bottle you posted on facebook today...

George - I've noticed with other bottles of this type that the faceting is often sharper(especially on examples that i've looked at that claim to be imperial), but Giovanni stated that he does not believe this is any indication of age or I guess quality. It guess it may just be an artistic decision by the maker who decides how deep and sharp the faceting should be. I have read that if the Qianlong reign mark here is genuine and of the period this could well be an imperial bottle? What do you think? Would be interesting to hear other opinions on this...
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2017, 12:10:53 pm »

Interested to hear who you bought the bottles off and to see your other recent purchases Cathy! A very interesting bottle you posted on facebook today...

George - I've noticed with other bottles of this type that the faceting is often sharper(especially on examples that i've looked at that claim to be imperial), but Giovanni stated that he does not believe this is any indication of age or I guess quality. It guess it may just be an artistic decision by the maker who decides how deep and sharp the faceting should be. I have read that if the Qianlong reign mark here is genuine and of the period this could well be an imperial bottle? What do you think? Would be interesting to hear other opinions on this...

I think your right .. Could well have been the artistic decision by the maker..  I have seen Imperial examples with dull corners like Cathy's..  So could well be Imperial..

Giovanni is likely correct Smiley
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cshapiro
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2017, 01:56:16 pm »

Thanks Luke and George!

I am hoping to hear from some of the senior members like Giovanni to get their opinions on this one.
I have been re-reading the Marakovic book on e-yaji and everything seems right - from the size to the mouth to the mark.

George I am attaching another picture that shows the edges of the facets - each one appears to have a tiny facet to knock off the sharpness of the edge.

And yes Luke I am just spellbound by the carved rock crystal bottle I posted on facebook. I will likely post it here as well because I would like to hear what Tom and others think about it.

I also want to post the rock crystal bat bottle that I also got from this collectors estate.
Will try to find time to edit the pictures so I can post today or tomorrow.

In the meantime, here are a couple more photos - and yes, I need a manicure but left my fingers in the shot so you could see how tiny it is!


« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 02:03:43 pm by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2017, 06:32:47 pm »

Thanks for the pics Cathy..

They show a much less rounded corners than I thought..

Congrats again !
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2017, 07:15:07 pm »

Thanks George!  I find it really difficult to photograph some bottles, and this one is particularly hard - probably because of the small size.

A sincere thanks for all you do running this board and encouraging and helping everyone!
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Cathy
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2017, 10:06:24 pm »

   The mark looks modern to me, because it is too well done. The genuine original marks are cruder (and I've had 9 of them in my possession), because they were done with a foot pedal powered grinder. This looks like it was done with a very fine diamond tipped power tool.

And the usual size for genuine Imperial Qianlong octagonal bottles is about 50-60 mm (5-6 cm).
This is more the size of a  bottle from the Yongzheng reign.

Clare Chu has a collection of 7 of these octagonal bottles, from 3.5 cm up to 7 cm in size, bought in the Shanghai Flea Market for US$30-50 each. There were two Hong Kong collectors who, in the 1990s, would not buy octagonal glass bottles without incised Imperial marks. And dozens of octagonal bottles all of a sudden came on the market WITH such marks.

   Most of my reign marked Imperial bottles (and I had only one in 1987, which I featured in my exhibition catalogue that year, #2, bought from YF Yang in 1981 during the ICSBS Honolulu convention), came from the Marian Mayer Collection, via Bob Hall in 1989 at the ICSBS Chicago convention (#53, 54, 59, 60, 61 & 62), and so had great provenance.  The last four bottles were quite crudely polished and carved overlays, but all had genuine Qianlong marks, authenticated by Bob Hall as well as YF Yang and Hugh Moss, who'd helped Bob with his 2nd catalogue, where these were illustrated.

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2017, 10:45:08 pm »

Dear Joey,

Unfortunately there is not a picture of the mark on your bottle in your 1987 catalog. Do you have a picture you could post? There appear to be very few examples of a faceted bottle with a reign mark that I can find.

Your post makes me very encouraged because the mark on mine is crudely done - I took a picture looking straight at it to show that. The other pictures were at angles so you couldn't see it properly.  I put arrows pointing to the areas where the mark is off. You can see too where the mark overshoots or doesn't connect which makes me think it was not done with anything modern. Maybe our resident former lapidary expert (George) can help with determining what kind of tool made these marks?

Also on the size, I have found at least one that is smaller, but not marked. This one only 2.9cm!
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/46981773_a-ruby-red-glass-snuff-bottle

From reading the Marakovic exhibition, it is my understanding that there were a lot of the smaller bottles made so wouldn't 3.1cm be in line with the time frame?
Quote
The relatively small size of this particular example prompts us to note that, although the standard-sized snuff bottle represented by some of the imperial enamels on metal of the Kangxi period (whether painted or inlaid) continued throughout the dynasty, smaller sizes seem to have been popular alongside them during the early decades of the eighteenth century. There were probably two reasons for this. The ever-growing production of bottles as containers for gifts during the eighteenth century as snuff took hold in wider and wider circles prompted relatively smaller sizes – to limit the amount of precious snuff distributed. The seriously small bottles we now call ‘miniatures’ that evolved by the Qianlong reign might have been a natural progression of this trend. A gift of snuff was all it took to grant imperial benediction; there was no need to dole it out by the shovel-full. Many standard-size bottles continued to be produced, however. The elite were not short of fine snuff and might prefer larger bottles for their daily needs.




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Cathy
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2017, 01:17:07 am »

Hi Cathy,

This mark looks wheel cut to me.

Tom
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« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2017, 01:24:10 am »

You can see too where the mark overshoots or doesn't connect which makes me think it was not done with anything modern. Maybe our resident former lapidary expert (George) can help with determining what kind of tool made these marks?


Those overshoots are the biggest clue that the mark was done with an iron brush ... So pretty Early.

I think yes as well for the height of your bottle being a match for Beijing glass shops. 
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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2017, 02:04:39 am »

Tom and George, thank you!!!

I'm so glad to have help from you guys! I don't even know what wheel cut or iron brush means - I have much more to learn!
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Cathy
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2017, 03:16:17 am »

Hi Cathy,

Interesting to see your quote from the Marakovic collection which talks of these miniature bottles as being gift bottles. I have read, from Robert Hall ?, that the octagonal bottles were normally gift bottles. As yours is both octagonal and miniature then it certainly fits as a gift bottle.

I've seen a number of the miniature glass bottles come up at auction but I've taken little interest as they normally have quite long necks which don't appeal to me as the proportions look wrong. I like yours as the neck is the right length.

I'm not sure the mark is wheel cut, I can't see enough to tell if the incised cuts become less deep at their ends as with wheel cutting.

The polishing marks on the base look correct for age as in polished with a large wheel and lose abrasive material.

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2017, 08:12:18 am »

Cathy,

Pretty bottle!

George,

I'm curious if you can describe in more detail or lead me somewhere which describes the process of the "iron brush" technique of carving by hand?  I have experience in wood carving, but is the process similar when carving in stone or glass?  Specifically, what is the type of chisel used, and does the carver go over a stroke once, or make several passes
to get the desired characters?  Aside from the good point about seeing the depth of the strokes on the ends of the lines
as to whether they're from a rotary tool or not, what are some other clues to look for?  By my untrained eye, my first conclusion when looking at this bottle is that the "overshoots" are done with a power tool.

Thanks,


Rheuben.
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« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2017, 08:34:53 am »

Cathy,

   Seeing the mark face on, Yes, it does look suitably crude (it still seems strange to me to write that - since we basically look for the 'best' quality! But in this case, cruder is better, to a point).
 
    Re.size, it seems to me more suitable to a Yongzheng bottle than a Qianlong bottle; and the glass colour and the wide mouth, look 'right' for 18th C., so it might simply be from earlier in the Qianlong reign, say ca.1740-1760, or, as Adrian suggests from somewhere he read, that it was a gift bottle, and thus smaller. But by and large, the ones with incised marks were NOT meant as gifts, or at least not to go outside the Forbidden City, in my understanding.

  Re.the marks on my bottles: Sadly, I've no photo of the mark on my purple glass flask (#2 in my 1987 catalogue), but if you have Robert Hall C.S.B. #2, from 1989, he had the bases photographed and they are with the bottles. In an earlier post, I listed the 6 marked glass bottles I bought then from the Marian Mayer Collection out of that sales catalogue.

  I really went to town at that convention! I saw Bob & Lindsey Hall on the Sunday before the convention, and bought 10 bottles (I wanted 15, but 5 were on hold for another collector; I subsequently bought 2 of the 5. In fact, I bought one of them while on a flight from London to Toronto - it was Bob Hall's luck I was trying to 'save' money, flying Club instead of First, so he had a captive audience for 7 hours!

   As well, I bought 12  top quality bottles from Clare Chu, then Clare Lawrence (then Clare Lawrence ltd, London; now, Asian Art Studio, LA).
I also bought a Qianlong  period Palace Workshops Lapis Lazuli bottle with a Qianlong couplet incised on one side, complete with a Yuzhi ('By Imperial Command Made' mark) mark as part of the inscription, from Chris Randall (JWA Int.)

   
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